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Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

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Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#61

Post by dpierce9 »

Kirby64 wrote: post #55
dpierce9 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t seem right to me. Is this 200k per dispenser? The dispenser is really just a fancy switch and a plug in a kiosk. If you are talking about the central transformer/switching systems, then yes that makes sense. But you can add a lot of dispensers to that. A pump is only 25k to install if you don’t include the infrastructure to support the pump (tank, canopy, fire suppression, filters, etc).all that costs mo…

DCFCs are much more than a “fancy switch”. It’s a circuit capable of converting 3-phase high voltage AC into variable high voltage DC at 150-350kW. The power electronics are very, very expensive. As far as I’m aware, the large transformer you see usually hidden somewhere nearby is not the primary cost (although it is expensive, especially for very high wattage ones). And yes, it’s 200k per dispenser including the inf…

The fast charger is the expensive part, the dispenser is not nearly so. Just like a gas station, dispensers to chargers are many-one. I was being a bit glib when I said the dispenser is a fancy switch (esp if the lines are cooled) but only just a bit.

I see a report that has Tesla’s cost as 43k per installed dispenser. That is a fully load cost, not the marginal cost of dispenser but it is good enough.

Looking at listings for gas stations for sale (with a convenience store but no auto repair), I see about 150-300k per dispenser. That isn’t exactly apples to apples but suffice to say it isn’t exactly cheap and much closer to representing the cost than the cost of a pump (which is I assume cheaper than a dispenser).

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#62

Post by ggreer »

MrHamburger wrote: post #44
toast0 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think that given the chargers are so expensive, they'd want to make them easy to pay to use. I have a PHEV, so using a charger out and about is silly, but I've only managed to use one pay charger, and it was a lot harder than a gas pump. Even the free ones are hard to use. With the PHEV, the charged amounts are rather low, so I understand the desire to push stored value accounts, but really there should have…

Charging via application brings unnecessary friction and severely degrades UX. Another UX offenders are QR codes on charging stalls and locking charging cables unless you will find that correct QR code so you can unlock your charging cable. Not that one, that will unlock charging cable in the stall next to you. For FFS why do I need to search for QR codes at a first place... I can imagine a simple solution - take a c…

You don't even need the contactless credit card reader. ISO 15118 is the standard for plug and charge.[1] Tesla implements it, as do most other EV manufacturers. The problem is that charging networks and manufacturers haven't settled on a way to exchange and update certificates.[2]

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118

2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#64

Post by ggreer »

menthe wrote: post #54
asynchronous wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They must not have one, because they’re ALWAYS taking up two stalls at the Tesla supercharger ones.

Take this to daddy Elon - this has absolutely nothing to do with Rivian.

Rivian placed their charging port on the front left corner, while Teslas have ports on the rear left corner. So to charge a Rivian at a Tesla Supercharger, you have to park in the adjacent spot and plug in.[1]

More Supercharging stations are adding "trailer compatible" spots, so this should become less of an issue over time. I would also bet that EV manufacturers will standardize on a port location similar to how gas vehicles have. (Early gas vehicles often put the fill hole in places like the dash or under the seat.)

1. https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_the...

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#65

Post by Rebelgecko »

bdcravens wrote: post #42
pbreit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~90 locations?

Yeah I've just never seen one, and don't have a Rivian, so it never came across the media I consume. I'm in the Houston area, and they only have 3 in Texas, none of which are near me. Only one is on a freeway that I may likely encounter.

They're more common further west, especially around national parks and other outdoorsy areas

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#66

Post by encoderer »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #34
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car. High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. A gas pump costs about $25k installed. If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to: The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge. The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up. The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not…

Add on to that that many gas stations make more money from going in and buying something in the store. If you stay at an EV charging station for longer, you are going to be more likely to buy something. This is a reason there are Tesla superchargers now at places like sonic in the west. Also see Buckees.

I imagine battery technology improving fast enough that it stays economically challenging to build out charging to anything like gas station level scale.

We will come to think of stopping to fill up your car routinely as quaint as lamp lighters.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#68

Post by kccqzy »

Kirby64 wrote: post #55
dpierce9 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t seem right to me. Is this 200k per dispenser? The dispenser is really just a fancy switch and a plug in a kiosk. If you are talking about the central transformer/switching systems, then yes that makes sense. But you can add a lot of dispensers to that. A pump is only 25k to install if you don’t include the infrastructure to support the pump (tank, canopy, fire suppression, filters, etc).all that costs mo…

DCFCs are much more than a “fancy switch”. It’s a circuit capable of converting 3-phase high voltage AC into variable high voltage DC at 150-350kW. The power electronics are very, very expensive. As far as I’m aware, the large transformer you see usually hidden somewhere nearby is not the primary cost (although it is expensive, especially for very high wattage ones). And yes, it’s 200k per dispenser including the inf…

The expensive power electronics you speak of are not part of the dispenser. The dispenser is really just a very fancy switch. It performs some payment authorization and then switches on those expensive power electronics.

If you look at a modern Electrify America unit, the dispenser is an extremely slim panel with a screen. It clearly isn't big enough to contain these power electronics.

Now transformer isn't a great name because it implies an AC-to-AC device which this is not. So I can see where the confusion comes from.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#69

Post by Kirby64 »

dpierce9 wrote: post #61
Kirby64 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DCFCs are much more than a “fancy switch”. It’s a circuit capable of converting 3-phase high voltage AC into variable high voltage DC at 150-350kW. The power electronics are very, very expensive. As far as I’m aware, the large transformer you see usually hidden somewhere nearby is not the primary cost (although it is expensive, especially for very high wattage ones). And yes, it’s 200k per dispenser including the inf…

The fast charger is the expensive part, the dispenser is not nearly so. Just like a gas station, dispensers to chargers are many-one. I was being a bit glib when I said the dispenser is a fancy switch (esp if the lines are cooled) but only just a bit. I see a report that has Tesla’s cost as 43k per installed dispenser. That is a fully load cost, not the marginal cost of dispenser but it is good enough. Looking at lis…

At least the Tesla implementation of their latest stuff, dispenser to faster charger ratio is 1:1. Their older design would gang 2 dispensers to a single 150kW combined charge rate, but new ones are 250kW per dispenser for each port simultaneously.
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