Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million • Hacker News Board

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#101

Post by wpietri » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 2:50 AM UTC

mbesto wrote: post #73

wpietri wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good UI comes from collaboration and iteration with users. Apple did something like 100 iterations on the first iPod. Typical consumer electronics companies do 3 to 5. The government RFP and budgeting process is practically designed to prevent iteration and exploration. I can just hear Senator Blowhard of Cornhusk now: "So you want an unknown amount of money to keep building things until users are happy? That's an ob…

> Apple did something like 100 iterations on the first iPod. I don't doubt you, but do you have a reference for this?

For the Apple figure, I'm pretty sure it was Inside Steve's Brain. This was some years back and I'm away from my books, though. I'm sure it was 100 iterations on some Apple device, but I won't swear it was the iPod. The 3-5 number I got from a consumer electronics designer I took a class with.

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#102

Post by Steko » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 2:52 AM UTC

keypusher wrote: post #85

binarycrusader wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The midwest (Kansas, Missouri, so on...)? Seriously. $40K a year annual salary, and if you add in all the benefits, that might hit $66K.

Total employee cost is much greater than just salary.

I also heard programmers like to use computers. On desks. In offices. With air conditioning. Uh oh, those darn costs keep going up.

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#103

Post by yen223 » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 2:54 AM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #93

It's really hard to overstate how bad the government is at software development. I've worked in several contracts with various agencies, and I know people who still stay in the game, and the best ones I've seen are ten years behind everybody else and spending about 50x what they should to get things done. They're simply swamped in bureaucratic molasses. For instance, even though the "business" of the government (thin…

Ex-employee of Accenture here. Accenture basically earns most of their money selling horrendously overpriced "solutions" to customers who don't care about cost.

The thing is, the bureaucracy that you mentioned, it's not just the government. Too many large companies, especially non-IT ones, assume that you can complete a project by throwing 100 mediocre programmers at it.

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#104

Post by wpietri » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 2:54 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #97

cleaver wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That paralleled my brief career in government. Managers are not promoted for efficient decision making—they are promoted for not having been associated with an unsuccessful initiative.

Exactly why I fear government managed healthcare.

I think there's less reason to fear that. Some of the best parts of government are the science- and data-driven ones, and evidence-based medicine provides a lot of data. Plus, doctors are notoriously independent.

Personally, I'd feel much better about government-run healthcare than for-profit-insurer-run healthcare. At least with the government option, everybody works for me, either directly or indirectly. Plus, a bureaucrat's natural fear works in my favor.

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#105

Post by ameasure » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 2:56 AM UTC

I have 2 theories for why this happens:

1) The people drawing up these contracts know nothing about software. They are often non-technical, elderly, upper-management types that have never written a line of code in their life. For all they know, adding a link to a webpage is a 2 week project.

2) Congress punishes federal agencies for not spending all of their budget each year by cutting their budgets. As a result, towards the end of the fiscal year every federal agency goes on a crap buying spree to make sure they've spent every last penny.

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#106

Post by wpietri » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 2:57 AM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #100

bradleyjg wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the people being bombed. Defense my ass.

Tell what to the people being bombed? That you're hard at work changing their fortune by refusing to reform the IT procurement process of the US government? They will be eternally grateful.

As a USian, sometimes it seems like the high cost of war is the only reason we haven't invaded yet more countries. The vast cost is certainly one of the few arguments that has resonance across the political spectrum.

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#107

Post by wpietri » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 3:02 AM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #95

cleaver wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That paralleled my brief career in government. Managers are not promoted for efficient decision making—they are promoted for not having been associated with an unsuccessful initiative.

Is it "not having been associated" or "not being blamed due to misfollowed procedures"?

My impression was "associated".

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#108

Post by luriel » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 3:02 AM UTC

grassclip wrote: post #69

wpietri wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that IBM Federal is as bad as you suggest. But part of that is due to how government works, which is in turn due to how citizens react to things. Think about it like a government employee. If you do your job perfectly well, nobody notices. Despite the bureaucracy, despite unclear success criteria, despite insane budgeting. Nobody notices. That's just what's expected. When something goes wrong, though, you ge…

If your a government employee and something goes wrong you just claim that you didn't have enough money or resources to do the job. At least that's what everyone seems to do and they get away with it.

Just look at the TSA.

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#109

Post by wpietri » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 3:03 AM UTC

crusso wrote: post #76

wpietri wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good UI comes from collaboration and iteration with users. Apple did something like 100 iterations on the first iPod. Typical consumer electronics companies do 3 to 5. The government RFP and budgeting process is practically designed to prevent iteration and exploration. I can just hear Senator Blowhard of Cornhusk now: "So you want an unknown amount of money to keep building things until users are happy? That's an ob…

Yeah, and for $33M they couldn't build in some iterations and bring in focus groups or hire someone competent to get it at least partially right the first time? These projects are handed out to reward the connected contractors, contributors and lobbyists that know how to work their target politicians and bureaucrats. There are ZERO incentives to do quality work. No one will lose his job over this software travesty. N…

Putting iterations into a procurement process is very hard. How does one bid against that? How can one control costs? How can we know the cost of the project up front if we don't know exactly what will be done? And if there's a disagreement about whether the project is really done, how do you litigate without a clear spec?

It's not totally impossible to do something agile in a government context, but it requires much more skill and trust from all involved. It's risky. And nobody outside the government is very understanding when things blow up, which happens more when you pick risky choices.

Re: Census Bureau's American FactFinder software cost taxpayers $33.3 million

#110

Post by mseebach » Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 3:12 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #106

mseebach wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell what to the people being bombed? That you're hard at work changing their fortune by refusing to reform the IT procurement process of the US government? They will be eternally grateful.

As a USian, sometimes it seems like the high cost of war is the only reason we haven't invaded yet more countries. The vast cost is certainly one of the few arguments that has resonance across the political spectrum.

Given the willingness of the US government to run huge deficits, I don't see how fighting waste in completely different areas of government would enable the country to go war.

Never mind that we're taking about saving millions, while the last two wars each cost trillions. Or 100,000 Census Bureau websites as discussed in the article.