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Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

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Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not nearly as good. I tried the free trial and cancelled it before it was over.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/chatgpt-vs-g... https://www.tomsguide.com/ai/google-gemini-vs-openai-chatgpt It won these shootouts and that's been my experience also, when I need to use AI (extremely rare) I just use the Google Gemini free one. I feel like this is how most people will use AI and why it is doomed to be the ultra low margin grocery store business instead of the huge cash cow business p…

I use AI all the time, so I trust my own experience more than some random internet reports. I'll try Gemini again in a few months.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#132

> Genie 2 is capable of remembering parts of the world that are no longer in view and then rendering them accurately when they become observable again. This is huge, the Minecraft demos we saw recently we're just toys because you couldn't actually do anything in them.

It's worth keeping in mind that "there exists X such that Y is true" is not the same as "Y is true for all X". People love using these sorts of statements since they're technically true as written, but most people will read them in a way that's false. Eg, the statement is true for the Minecraft demos, and for any model which doesn't exhibit literally zero persistence for (temporarily) non-visible state.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#133
You can see artifacts common in screen-space reflections in the videos. I suspect they are not due to the model rendering reflections based on screen-space information, but the model being trained on games that render reflections in such a manner.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#134

It’s interesting to me that we continue to see such pressure on video and world generation, despite the fact that for years now we’ve gotten games and movies that have beautiful worlds filled with lousy, limited, poorly written stories. Star Wars movies have looked phenomenal for a decade, full of bland stories we’ve all heard a thousand times. Are there any game developers working on infinite story games? I don’t ca…

No Man's Sky is kind of what you're looking for, except you may notice its quests (and worlds) become redundant quickly...I say quickly, but that became the case for me after like 30 hours of game play.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#135

It’s interesting to me that we continue to see such pressure on video and world generation, despite the fact that for years now we’ve gotten games and movies that have beautiful worlds filled with lousy, limited, poorly written stories. Star Wars movies have looked phenomenal for a decade, full of bland stories we’ve all heard a thousand times. Are there any game developers working on infinite story games? I don’t ca…

Dwarf Fortress is the state of the art in procedural interactive story generation. Youtube channels like kruggsmash show how great it is in that role if you actually read all the text.

But that doesn't translate well to websites, trailers or demos. It's easier to wow people with graphics.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#136

Forget video games. This is a huge step forward for AGI and Robotics. There's a lot of evidence from Neurobiology that we must be running something like this in our brains--things like optical illusions, the editing out of our visual blind spot, the relatively low bandwidth measured in neural signals from our senses to our brain, hallucinations, our ability to visualize 3d shapes, to dream. This is the start of addin…

> Glasses that make the world 20% more pleasant to look at.

When AR glasses get good enough to wear all day, I've really been wanting to make a real-life ad blocker.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#137
post #134

It’s interesting to me that we continue to see such pressure on video and world generation, despite the fact that for years now we’ve gotten games and movies that have beautiful worlds filled with lousy, limited, poorly written stories. Star Wars movies have looked phenomenal for a decade, full of bland stories we’ve all heard a thousand times. Are there any game developers working on infinite story games? I don’t ca…

No Man's Sky is kind of what you're looking for, except you may notice its quests (and worlds) become redundant quickly...I say quickly, but that became the case for me after like 30 hours of game play.

That's the kicker, LLM driven stories are likely to fall into the same trap that "infinite" procedurally generated games usually do - technically having infinite content to explore doesn't necessarily mean that content is infinitely engaging. You will get bored when you start to notice the same patterns coming up over and over again.

Procgen games mainly work when the procedural parts are just a foundation for hand-crafted content to sit on, whether that's crafted by the players (as in Minecraft) or the developers (as in No Mans Sky after they updated it a hundred times, or Rougelikes in general).

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#138
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could compress down a game to run on cheap hardware acceleration. No more Unreal Engine with crazy requirements. Once the hallucinations are fixed, you even get better lighting. This is the Unreal Engine killer. Give it five years.

> This is the Unreal Engine killer. Give it five years. We need to calm down with the clickbait-addled thinking that "this new thing kills this established powerful tested useful thing." :-) Game developers have been discussing these tools at length, after all, they are the group of software developers who are most motivated to improve their workflow. No other group of software developers comes close to gamedevs' eff…

> gamedevs' efficiency requirements

These models won't need you to retopo meshes, write custom shaders, or optimize Nanite or Lumen gameplay. They'll generate the final frames, sans traditional graphics processing pipeline.

> The 1 thing required for serious developers is control

Same with video and image models, and there's tremendous work being done there as we speak.

These models will eventually be trained to learn all of human posture and animation. And all other kinds of physics as well. Just give it time.

> Those who need maximum control over every frame and every millisecond and CPU cyle will still use engines.

Why do you think that's true? These techniques can already mimic the physics of optics better than 80 years of doing it with math. And they're doing anatomy, fluid dynamics, and much more. With far better accuracy than game engines.

These will get faster and they will get controllable.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#139
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the squealing carcass called Gemini Have you used Gemini? It seems every bit as good as ChatGPT.

It is not nearly as good. I tried the free trial and cancelled it before it was over.

Could definitely be different based on use case. I wonder what causes the negative Gemini sentiment here to be so different from the Leaderboard results at https://lmarena.ai/?leaderboard

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#140
post #61

What is actually of value here? There's no actual game, it's incredibly expensive to compute, the behavior is erratic.. It's cool because it's new - but that will quickly wear off, and once that's gone, what's left? There's insane amounts of money being spent on this, and for what?

I'm not an expert in this space but I can see the value. It allows an endless loop of generating novel scenarios and evaluating an AI agent's performance within that scenario (for example, "go up the stairs"). A world with one minute of coherence is about enough to evaluate whether the AI's actions were in the right direction or not. When you then want to run an agent on a real task in the real world, with video-input data, you can run the same policy that it learned in dream-world simulation. The real world has coherence, so the AI agent's actions just need to string together well enough minute-by-minute to work toward achieving a goal.

You could use real video games to do this but I guess there'd be a risk of over-fitting; maybe it would learn too precisely what a staircase looks like in Minecraft, but fail to generalize that to the staircase in your home. If they can simulate dream worlds (as well as, presumably, worlds from real photos), then they can train their agents this way.

This would only be training high-level decision policies (ie, WASD inputs). For something like a robot, lower level motor control loops would still be needed to execute those commands.

Of course you could just do your training in the real world directly, because it already has coherence and plenty of environmental variety. But the learning process involves lots of learning from failure, and that would probably be even more expensive than this expensive simulator.

Despite the claims I don't think it does much to help with AI safety. It can help avoid hilarious disasters of an AI-in-training crashing a speedboat onto the riverbank, but I don't think there's much here that helps with the deeper problems of value-alignment. This also seems like an effective way to train robo-killbots who perceive the world as a dreamlike first-person shooter.

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