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Forced to upgrade

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Re: Forced to upgrade

#181

Post by curiousguy »

skrebbel wrote: post #52
keiferski wrote: post #38

To play devil’s advocate here, I actually think iPhones have some of the best longevity and resale value, compared to virtually any other product or brand - except perhaps if we go back decades to appliances made near the middle of the century. The fact that a device can be perfectly usable for 5+ years is pretty good compared to most other things I find myself buying and replacing in less time. Otherwise I think the…

> The fact that a device can be perfectly usable for 5+ years is pretty good compared to most other things I find myself buying and replacing in less time. Woa. Nearly every other device in my house lasts for 10+ years. Coffee machine, printer, laundry machine, oven, TV, every single one of those is over 10 years old. Our car isn't yet but I very much expect it to last at least that long. The only device I replace ab…

I don’t think this is the correct comparison.

The iphone doesn’t just die after 5 years.

I still have a 10 year iPhone 6 and a 8 years old iPhone 7 both still working just fine.

Apple stopped releasing OS upgrades with NEW features, but they are still releasing security updates. (In this aspect it’s better than most (all?) modern TVs.

Those iphone are still working the same way as when they were released. The only issue is that some apps doesn’t works anymore.

So part of the blame is on app developers.

Sure, maybe the app needs some feature which the old phone doesn’t have, but more likely is that the company just can’t bother to maintain their app in older OS versions.

Re: Forced to upgrade

#182

Post by ryandrake »

xorcist wrote: post #74
keiferski wrote: post #38

To play devil’s advocate here, I actually think iPhones have some of the best longevity and resale value, compared to virtually any other product or brand - except perhaps if we go back decades to appliances made near the middle of the century. The fact that a device can be perfectly usable for 5+ years is pretty good compared to most other things I find myself buying and replacing in less time. Otherwise I think the…

> The fact that a device can be perfectly usable for 5+ years is pretty good No. No, it's not good at all. For almost every other product it would be deemed unacceptable. Beyond unacceptable even. We should not normalize this. My car is > 10 years old. My desktop computer is > 10 years old. My laptop has had both the screen and battery changed. And the fan, multiple times. I don't know how old my laser printer is, pr…

The big travesty is third party software developers. They just give up after the OS vendor releases a new major version and they stop working on older major versions. This should be totally unacceptable. The software works on iOS N one day, and then the next day when iOS N+1 comes out, the developers give their users the big “up yours” and stop caring about iOS N.

Re: Forced to upgrade

#183

Post by ryandrake »

StressedDev wrote: post #172

Once a computer (a smart phone is a computer) stops getting security updates, it should not be connected to a network. The reason is that device will get hacked and that is not good. This person should have upgraded his iPhone 8 as soon as Apple stopped offering security updates. He either already got hacked or would have eventually got hacked if he continued to use an insecure phone. Note that not all hacks are visi…

This kind of “security ransom” should not be acceptable. Oh I should throw away my perfectly working phone because the OS vendor just up and decided to stop fixing its security, leaving the device useless? Shouldn’t they compensate me for making my perfectly good hardware useless, since I should not be connecting it to the web now?

This person is doing the right thing: complaining loudly about corporate practice that should not be accepted by consumers.

Re: Forced to upgrade

#184

Post by StressedDev »

ryandrake wrote: post #174
llm_nerd wrote: post #166

I'm curious which apps were the purported problem. Apple's recommendation for app developers is targeting 16.1 as the min device, which the 7 and 8 support (devices that are 7+ and 8+ years old, fwiw), and doing a quick check of the app store, every top app I looked at required 16.1 or earlier. And FWIW, while Apple offers no specific guarantees, they're still providing security updates when necessary. There was one…

I can give you an egregious example: FlightAware. Not only do they not offer updates that support 16.x (fine, I’d just use the last version that still works on my phone) but instead, their last update puts a full screen modal dialog up, telling me the app will no longer run and that I need to buy a new phone that supports the latest iOS. You can’t even dismiss the modal, so the app effectively no longer works. Total…

Software engineers are notorious for not wanting to support legacy devices and software. You see this all of the time on Hacker News. If you want more venders to support older devices, you need to change the culture. You also need to acknowledge the costs. Here are the costs:

1.Increased software development costs - Costs increase because software has to be designed to fallback to alternative implementations when the newest OS, browser, database, etc. features are not available.

2. Increased performance optimization costs. Older devices tend to be slower and this means software engineers will have to spend more time optimizing programs.

3. Increased testing costs - You need to test all features on older and newer devices.

The other problem is it might not be worth it to support older devices. Basically, supporting older devices may not be profitable (i.e. too few users who do not generate enough revenue to justify the increased costs).

Re: Forced to upgrade

#185

Post by datadrivenangel »

yumraj wrote: post #164
gregoriol wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SE3 is good enough and not too big

I love SE3, had SE2 before it. I love the phone and the size, but I do NOT love the battery life.. It's manageable though.

battery life is great for moderate use in my experience. Won't support watching videos all day, but I usually get almost two days of life out of it.

Re: Forced to upgrade

#186

Post by sunrunner »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #131
putzdown wrote: post #126

The main message I take from this story is that a decent quorum of consumers want Apple to offer a smaller phone in each generation. The OP seems not to have minded having to upgrade eventually, just not to a “virtual tablet.” I’ve heard others express the same desire.

And Apple did this for two generations and not enough of people one bought it but it is still available used . https://www.apple.com/by/iphone-12/specs/ (12 mini) https://support.apple.com/en-us/111873 I would recommend to return the phone and get the 13 mini which should last awhile

+1 for the 13 mini if form factor is your primary concern (and given the sizes of even the 'small' mobile phone offerings of recent years I completely understand why that would be).

I upgraded an eight year old SE (first generation) to an SE3 thinking it would be the obvious choice, then promptly replaced it with the 13 mini within a week (fortunately still available at the time).

The difference is small on paper but noticable in your hands, and I honestly feel like the 13 mini is the spiritual successor to the SE series while the SE3 is a weird relative that you don't really want to have to interact with.

For some reason the slightly more boxy and grip friendly design of the SE1 and SE2 was changed in the SE3 to have the curves that were introduced in (I think?) the iPhone 6, despite the SE series having a slightly more square design up to that point. But the SE3 also inherited the lower raw technical specs that were expected from the SE series.

So somehow the 13 mini wins in terms of both form factor _and_ tech capabilities/new Apple features (such as Face ID over Touch ID).

Re: Forced to upgrade

#187

Post by datadrivenangel »

vundercind wrote: post #156
pbmonster wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing inherent makes security on 7 year old hardware any more difficult than on 2 year old hardware. Also, we're getting into the differences between upgrades (what OP said) and updates (the thing necessary to keep up with security) here. I'm having a really hard time coming up with an OS feature introduced in a full OS upgrade within the last 10 years that I actually want. I would have been perfectly content with…

> I'm having a really hard time coming up with an OS feature introduced in a full OS upgrade within the last 10 years that I actually want. - Live Photos. I won't consider any device that doesn't have something analogous, now. They're magical. Non-kid-havers may feel otherwise, but making every photo I snap of my kids a "Live Photo" is one of the most important improvements any technology thingy has provided in my en…

Those are very nice to have, but if the device still can do basic web and phone things do you really need to upgrade?

Re: Forced to upgrade

#188

Post by ryandrake »

StressedDev wrote: post #184
ryandrake wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can give you an egregious example: FlightAware. Not only do they not offer updates that support 16.x (fine, I’d just use the last version that still works on my phone) but instead, their last update puts a full screen modal dialog up, telling me the app will no longer run and that I need to buy a new phone that supports the latest iOS. You can’t even dismiss the modal, so the app effectively no longer works. Total…

Software engineers are notorious for not wanting to support legacy devices and software. You see this all of the time on Hacker News. If you want more venders to support older devices, you need to change the culture. You also need to acknowledge the costs. Here are the costs: 1.Increased software development costs - Costs increase because software has to be designed to fallback to alternative implementations when the…

None of those points incentivise software developers to deliberately block me from using the “last working version”. That last version already exists: it was already tested, already performed well, and had all of its engineering costs already spent. Suddenly stopping me from using it does not impact their profit in the slightest.

I was an iOS developer in a past life. It doesn’t take that much effort to keep the lights on on the older OS. But even if it did, it makes zero sense to suddenly make that already working older version stop working.

Re: Forced to upgrade

#189

Post by datadrivenangel »

ryandrake wrote: post #182
xorcist wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that a device can be perfectly usable for 5+ years is pretty good No. No, it's not good at all. For almost every other product it would be deemed unacceptable. Beyond unacceptable even. We should not normalize this. My car is > 10 years old. My desktop computer is > 10 years old. My laptop has had both the screen and battery changed. And the fan, multiple times. I don't know how old my laser printer is, pr…

The big travesty is third party software developers. They just give up after the OS vendor releases a new major version and they stop working on older major versions. This should be totally unacceptable. The software works on iOS N one day, and then the next day when iOS N+1 comes out, the developers give their users the big “up yours” and stop caring about iOS N.

This is something that Apple should also be held accountable for.

Re: Forced to upgrade

#190

Post by nradov »

obmelvin wrote: post #151
Hard_Space wrote: post #4

This also counts for desktop Macs. Twice in the last 20 years I have had to explain to my elderly Dad that even though his expensive Mac could last another thirty years, it's now a paperweight, or something to be 'repurposed'. I have wondered sometimes if hardware manufacturers actively seek out significant road-mapped hardware changes (such as Intel>ARM, etc., in case of Apple) in order to keep sales rolling in and…

Why can't your dad keep using his existing computer? Sure, if you make your living on the computer the new laptops are great. But if he's just checking email, photos, etc - I don't know why his computer needs to become a paperweight

At some point you no longer get security upgrades. Or new web browser versions aren't available and you're unable to access certain sites. In some cases there are workarounds like installing an open source OS but that's too much hassle for most consumers.
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