Live data from Hacker News

Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

ftm.nl

71–80 of 159 posts

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an aside, what makes this a vaccine vs a treatment?

> Neither of the vaccines prevents cancer; rather, they are a kind of immunotherapy that prompts the body’s immune system to battle the disease in patients with non-small cell lung cancer. Not 100% sure, because I've only heard about vaccines in preventative contexts before, but based on this description my guess would be that "anything that tells your immune system to Do Stuff" counts as a vaccine. Versus something…

There are also immune modulators that aren't vaccines. Interferon, for example, or more recently the famous checkpoint inhibitors that take the brakes off immune attack of cancer cells.

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#73
post #15

That's interesting. I was just reading about how high dose IV vitamin c can induce cell death in a wide variety of cancers, but somehow, despite this being known for decades, nobody has done rigorous research on it. https://www.cancer.gov/research/key-initiatives/ras/news-eve... From what I can tell there are several things like this - that have promising anti cancer effects, that just don't really get that much atte…

> That's interesting. I was just reading about how high dose IV vitamin c can induce cell death in a wide variety of cancers, but somehow, despite this being known for decades, nobody has done rigorous research on it. Sigh. Vitamin C quackery again. Vitamin C at high doses is cytotoxic, so it works against rapidly dividing cells. Cancer cells also preferentially concentrate vitamin C because they are under oxidative…

There is evidence that high doses of antioxidants can make cancer worse, probably because cancer cells are under oxidative stress.

https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2015...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8127329/

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#74
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a market that can be disrupted? It sounds if you know how to save a few billion and introduce more science based drugs, it’s ripe for an overtake.

Absolutely, and if you recall, even YC tried to get in on this idea. Except they did the same mistake anyone who comes up with this disruption plan commits (including Google with Calico, or Zuck with CZI) - they recruit existing academics to do the disruption. Unfortunately this just fails miserably because they’re culturally corrupted to think of standard dogmas (like there can never be a single cure for cancer). I…

Is there any plausible biological reason to think that there could ever be a single cure for cancer?

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#75
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since these are cancer trials I'm assuming no test subjects get paid, and university PhDs research for free, like in every other field, so what necessarily has to be expensive about it? If you have to pay 200 homeless to take your 0.0001% better than placebo antidepressants in the context of a huge corporation, and maybe redo the trial a few times, I can see how that gets expensive, but I don't see why it's a de fact…

> Most other products require a lot of high paid labor to produce, think of a video game studio for example, also without any guarantee it won't flop, and it certainly takes longer to develop than to do a clinical trial. You have to try really hard to make a video game no-one wants[0]. You might not recoup all your investment, but you won't sell zero copies. A drug can have all that money poured in, and nothing come…

https://247wallst.com/media/2024/08/04/9-biggest-video-game-...

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing the finger at regulation is misleading IMO. The regulations for bringing a drug to market are essentially quite simple: prove that it’s better than what currently exists. What makes it difficult is the word “ prove ” It turns out it’s obscenely hard to make a drug that’s good, and even harder to prove that it’s good.

> prove that it’s better than what currently exists. So how do you do that ethically? How do you justify taking off something that you know works to some extent and try something completely new or worse placebo? ie don't you have to construct the trial in the context of existing treatments etc? These are the kind of challenges that makes drug development slow - in the end you don't do one trial, but a series of trial…

[flagged]

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#77
post #42

That's interesting. I was just reading about how high dose IV vitamin c can induce cell death in a wide variety of cancers, but somehow, despite this being known for decades, nobody has done rigorous research on it. https://www.cancer.gov/research/key-initiatives/ras/news-eve... From what I can tell there are several things like this - that have promising anti cancer effects, that just don't really get that much atte…

This dates back to Linus Pauling: https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-C/pauling-r... It seems that once you exceed a certain level the body just dumps it, making megadoses unviable.

You get nicely expensive urine, though.

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#78
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty unlikely that this is true for a few reasons: - Doctors want the best outcomes for their patients. They’ll use whatever treatment is most effective - Doctors want the best outcomes for themselves. If they’ve found an effective treatment that others are overlooking then they’ll seek to publish - Patients want the best outcomes for themselves. If there is an overlooked treatment then they’ll communicate it…

>> If there is an overlooked treatment then they’ll communicate it to their doctor Hah sure. Try this and tell me how the egomanical "gods in white" react. Go through some stuff the RFK says about vaccines etc... and you'll see that in real life it's the opposite.

I’m not saying all doctors are perfect or even good, but surely there would be at least some occasions where a patient tries this supposedly very effective treatment, gets better, and the doctor is left curious.

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty unlikely that this is true for a few reasons: - Doctors want the best outcomes for their patients. They’ll use whatever treatment is most effective - Doctors want the best outcomes for themselves. If they’ve found an effective treatment that others are overlooking then they’ll seek to publish - Patients want the best outcomes for themselves. If there is an overlooked treatment then they’ll communicate it…

> Doctors want the best outcomes for themselves. If they’ve found an effective treatment that others are overlooking then they’ll seek to publish However often the work required to prove something is effective is beyond a capacity of a single Doctor. Also in terms of wanting the best outcome for themselves - sometimes that involves not putting their career at risk by trying unproven treatments on patients ( you are f…

I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. But it sounds like the parent said there’s a miracle treatment that the medical community is ignoring for lack of a financial incentive (and they then go on to mention a financial incentive?)

Re: Developing a cancer drug without Big Pharma: this hospital shows it can be done

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many thanks for saying what I suspected when looking at the research publications and clinical trials on neurodegenerative diseases. I was starting to think I was an unproductive perpetual malcontent. For example, memantine has been tested 5 times in ALS. There even no pre-clinical studies that show any positive effect of memantine in animal models. This seems so bizarre to me.

How good are our animal models of ALS? Are they predictive of effectiveness in humans?

I am not an expert (I am a retired R&D telecom engineer) but here is my take:

* As for cancer, there are several (many?) ALS variants. The first gene to be associated with ALS was SOD1 G93A allele in 1993. It stayed the only ALS gene known until 2006. That was a curse for research as ALS with SOD1 origin is less than 2% of total cases, and even for SOD1 there are dozens of mutations associated with ALS, some with 6 months of life expectancy, others with 20 years.

* Most commercial animal models are SOD1 G93A mice [0]. The G93A mutation represents roughly only 0.4-1.4% of all ALS cases worldwide, yet it is the most used animal model!

SOD1 G93A ALS models are also the less costly animal models.

* I think another important thing is that ALS starts often in hands (split hand phenomena) and targets skeletal muscles. But humans' nervous system for hands is very special, only shared with other upper primates. Other mammals like mice have an interneuron between the upper and lower motor neuron for hands. We do not, there is a direct connection between upper and lower motor neurons, reflecting the importance of manipulation for humans. Therefore for me, we can't prove with mice at pre-clinical stage, that a drug is efficacious or not (many drugs have some efficacy in animal models, but none in humans).

* Some publications pretend they can use individual cells, fishes, or nematodes as animal models. That's laughable, it's ignoring the importance of anatomy and physiology. We are complex animals, our hormones, our immune system, and our metabolism are important to understanding ALS. The proof of that is that ALS patients who have the best life expectancy have a BMI of 27.

* Other publications pretend to make their own animal models with some chemical, like BMAA, a neurotoxin found in certain cyanobacteria. Those publications smell bad behavior for me.

If you want to buy a mice model of ALS:

[0] https://www.jax.org/jax-mice-and-services/preclinical-resear...

Post reply on HN