Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

431–440 of 554 posts

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#431

Post by grvbck »

cuu508 wrote: post #406
SiVal wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would a bit of Post-It Note (for minimal adhesion) damage the screen coating if left on most of the time? Would even that much thickness stress the screen when opened and closed thousands of times? Is there a better (self-service) material?

> Would a bit of Post-It Note (for minimal adhesion) damage the screen coating if left on most of the time? Possible, I have one IPS monitor with a spot on screen where the color is pale. I had a post-it note there and I guess something bad happened when I tore it off.

I used electrical pvc tape for many years on my macbooks, no damage but I got tired of them leaving glue residue. Switched to post-its about 10 years ago, works perfectly.

I've never tried them on a matte or coated screen though.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#432

Post by xandrius »

goodpoint wrote: post #383
jdblair wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or, you can have a physical switch, like the Framework. that also hits your BOM but its not complex!

This is the right solution. And a hardware switch cost is completely negligible in a $1000 laptop.

But the margins?

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#433

Post by whatevaa »

MarcusE1W wrote: post #403
lukan wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sound is usually more sensitive, yes. But even if there is a physical switch on the laptop, only very exotic smartphones have them. Also, loudspeakers can act as microphones, too. In other words, paranoia gets exhausting in modern times. (And my smartphone has a replacable battery for that reason to at least sometimes enjoy potentially surveillance free time)

My Pinephone has a switch for the microphone and also my Pinebook Pro laptop. But I also would agree that this is exotic hardware.

Well i have Pinebook Pro and it's pretty much abandonware, pine doesn't do any software and OSS lacks maintainers, nobody want's it, e-waste laptop. Take it as you will.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#434

Post by jeltz »

camgunz wrote: post #395
ddalex wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one that is not worried at all about the camera and super concerned about microphones ? The camera may see me staring into the screen, woo hoo. The microphones will hear everything I discuss, incl. confidential information. There is no physical microphone cover there, is it ?

A picture of you with the subject "I know what you were looking at when I took this picture of you" is pretty good blackmail--I think there's an active campaign doing this even.

Excellent blackmail against teenagers. Pointless against me as an adult.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#435

Post by mrweasel »

paxys wrote: post #15
lxgr wrote: post #10

Arguably a much, much bigger problem are the (many) microphones of modern devices. These usually get neither an LED nor a switch, and unlike cameras can't easily be covered, nor pointed away from potentially sensitive topics/subjects.

No amount of microphones will ever be a bigger problem than a single compromising photo or video.

If an attacker is at the point where they can turn on your microphone, or video, it doesn't really matter anymore, it's been game over for a long time.

This never really registered to me, before a former colleague commented on the nonsense with people putting tape over their camera. If an attacker has access to your camera, or microphone, then they have access to pretty much very thing else. The difference in damage is negligible, it's already total for most.

If people are truly concerned about the camera in their laptop, then keep the computer in a dedicate room, shut it down when your done (or close the lid, if it's a laptop).

Sure it's kinda dumb that the LED is software controlled and that there's not a physical switch for turning off the microphone, but even having those things done correct doesn't negate the amount of damage someone could do with they have that kind of access to your devices.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#436

Post by jorvi »

axoltl wrote: post #303
jorvi wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you're not longer working on it, but why not just wire it so that: - The LED is in parallel, but with the sensor voltage supply, not the chip - Camera sensor idle voltage = low voltage for the LED (be it with stepping if needed) - Camera sensor active voltage = high voltage for the LED (again, stepping if needed) - little capacitor that holds enough charge to run the LED for ~3 seconds after camera goes back…

That's basically how this works, but manufacturing electronics at a massive scale requires some more flexibility. For example, capacitors have a pretty large tolerance (sometimes +/- 20%) and LEDs have quite a bit of variety in what voltages they'll work at. So for some people the LEDs might last 3 seconds, for some they might last 5s. Using a capacitor also means the LEDs will fade slowly instead of just turning off…

Thank you for the clarifications. Armchair (well, workbench) engineering strikes again haha!

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#437

Post by mrweasel »

gambiting wrote: post #376
Loughla wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you. I can recover from nudes of me being on the Internet. That night even help me filter out friends that aren't really friends. If someone drains my accounts, I'm definitely screwed.

>>If someone drains my accounts, I'm definitely screwed. You ring your bank and it's reversed almost instantly. Your photos on the internet you have no way of doing anything about them, they are there forever.

Not to downplay the ramification, especially to a young person, but the leak of photos are a passing thing and it's quickly forgotten. Afterwards you're pretty immune, what are they going to do, leak the photos again?

A young Danish woman had nude photos leaked by an old boyfriend. She had her friend take better pictures and posted those herself so now no one can find the original photos. Not suggesting that as a solution, but I thought it was a pretty fun response.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#438

Post by II2II »

sunnybeetroot wrote: post #281
tehjoker wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange that none of these companies will include a closable cover for the camera. I got one aftermarket. It is very reassuring since no hacking or accidental misclicks on my part can move the cover.

I had a closable cover and someone shut my laptop with enough force that the cover caused the screen to break. Be careful when closing.

Sure, that is going.to be true for anything with moving pats. Yet I would also imagine that design and materials are a factor here. Let's face it, these covers aren't exactly common on laptops. There is probably a lack of good design practices for them.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#439

Post by izacus »

542458 wrote: post #51
sbarre wrote: post #3

I thought the whole point of these camera LEDs was to have them wired to/through the power to the camera, so they are always on when the camera is getting power, no matter what. Having the LED control exposed through the firmware completely defeats this.

They are hardwired on Macbooks. From Daring Fireball, quoting an email from an Apple engineer. > All cameras after [2008] were different: The hardware team tied the LED to a hardware signal from the sensor: If the (I believe) vertical sync was active, the LED would light up. There is NO firmware control to disable/enable the LED. The actual firmware is indeed flashable, but the part is not a generic part and there ar…

Yep, and Apple changed that after some schools were spying on their students through software that could enable cameras on MacBooks without the light: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School...

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#440

Post by mass_and_energy »

71bw wrote: post #424
curun1r wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The microphone also can't be covered with a $1 plastic camera cover off Amazon. It's so easy to solve the camera issue if you care about it, but there's really nothing you can do about the mic.

I went the "batshit insane" route and my microphone hole is plugged in with some clay. It did most likely physically damage it forever, but at least I now know it's OFF for good.

Why not shut it off in the bios?
Post reply on HN