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Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

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Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#31

Post by whatwhaaaaat »

zackmorris wrote: post #26
snapcaster wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, really just fired off my comment without much thought and obviously would suck in real life since it would be hijacked by politicians. Not wedded to the government part, kinda just pretending US gov capable of public services like this

When I was growing up in the 1980s, the government provided public services like this and more. Somewhere along the way a government of the people, by the people, for the people, perished from the earth. Not from just one ailment like trickle-down economics, but from a thousand cuts delivered retroactively by revisionist history, until even the youth became their own wardens, and hope was finally lost.

I’d be interested a concrete example of how you believe the 1980s was somehow different as far as government services today - and our course what country.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#32

Post by austin-cheney »

7thaccount wrote: post #28
austin-cheney wrote: post #22

The article misstates a few things in its opening. Evidence so far indicates humans first settled into fixed colonies/cities around 45,000 years ago starting in eastern Europe. These people are referred to as neolithic, where as mobile units without a fixed geography are referred to as archaic. It wasn't until around 10,000 years ago that humans first civilized (around 8,000 to 7,000 BCE). So this means people, the s…

What is the evidence of cities existing 45,000 years ago? I thought the earliest we had was around 10,000 years ago in Turkey?

According to Wikipedia it is 25,000 years ago and in Eastern Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism#Requirements_for_per...

The 45,000 years ago number I referred to earlier comes from sources that are not online. Either way, the start of human settlement occurred on the Eastern European plain during the ice age, which is far before anything in Anatolia or Mesopotamia.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#33

Post by mtalantikite »

> Without writing, there was no history.

Uh, is there not plenty of evidence of oral traditions and histories spanning back millennia? There are Aboriginal stories that go back 7000 years. [1][2] Kind of weak to open with a statement like that.

Obviously not as old, but just in Toumani Diabaté's family they've passed down their familial history for 70 generations. [3]

Clearly history exists without writing.

[1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00049182.2015.10...

[2] https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/edge-of-memory-9781472943279/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toumani_Diabat%C3%A9

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#34

Post by cbogie »

ratorx wrote: post #14
datadeft wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an anecdata most of my friends believe that we know everything about ancient history. They are also very eager to hear about other parts of human knowledge to be progressing, for example AI models. Yet, when it comes to history they have this sort of static view.

Well, I can see how someone would naively think that was true, because only a fixed set of events have already happened in the past, so there is a correct answer. I think it also stems from the way it is taught in schools, where there is a lot of focus on memorising dates and events etc, rather than on the process of actually deriving them from sources of questionable trust. Also, the majority of focus in schools (in…

it’s kind of odd though to think about a kiddo learning history as the evidence allows it to be unfolded.

they’re brand new to being a human, and even then they aren’t adult humans (i guess defined as such, post facto)

seems like our brains are craving hard structural information to establish requisite coherency once fully ‘weened off’ by our family unit. so things are taught in the traditional scholastic type of way first, and then introduced to more scholarly approach later, revealing who is behind the curtain in oz.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#35

Post by saghm »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #29
7thaccount wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the evidence of cities existing 45,000 years ago? I thought the earliest we had was around 10,000 years ago in Turkey?

A "city" is a specific type of "settlement" -- one that has walls and can't produce its own food.

Are walls really a requirement for something being considered a city? Off the top of my head, I've been to New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Boston and don't recall anything I'd describe as a "wall" around any of them. Is not having walls just an American thing?

I could imagine the historical definition of "city" not being consistent with modern cities, but if that's the case, it's no wonder that this would confuse people and require clarifications like the one you give here.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#36

Post by jbattle »

quotemstr wrote: post #16

I've always wondered whether the Sumerians knew they were the first. Past empires, lost civilizations, and ancient artifacts have always fascinated us. The first museum emerges is Mesopotamia around 530 BC; the Egyptian obelisk installed next to the brand-new Colosseum in Rome was older then than the Colosseum is now; legends of giants and heroes of bygone ages are literary universals. We hunger for the past. But the…

I love this question! I got curious about how ancient people interpreted stone tools. When did humanity first realize “cavemen” had come before?

I saw this guy on youtube talking specifically about this topic. Im no historian but i felt like he gave it a serious grounded exploration (no ancient aliens!)

https://youtu.be/4jRbHhOOjw4

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#37

Post by canjobear »

mtalantikite wrote: post #33

> Without writing, there was no history. Uh, is there not plenty of evidence of oral traditions and histories spanning back millennia? There are Aboriginal stories that go back 7000 years. [1][2] Kind of weak to open with a statement like that. Obviously not as old, but just in Toumani Diabaté's family they've passed down their familial history for 70 generations. [3] Clearly history exists without writing. [1] https…

Obviously no one is claiming that nothing happened before writing. Historians use “history” as a technical term for events recorded in written and other durable records. They use “prehistory” for events recorded in oral traditions and archaeology.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#38

Post by austin-cheney »

saghm wrote: post #35
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "city" is a specific type of "settlement" -- one that has walls and can't produce its own food.

Are walls really a requirement for something being considered a city? Off the top of my head, I've been to New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Boston and don't recall anything I'd describe as a "wall" around any of them. Is not having walls just an American thing? I could imagine the historical definition of "city" not being consistent with modern cities, but if that's the case, it's no wonder that this…

Walls are generally not a formal requirement, but are implied so due to their commonality. All ancient cities, especially pre-civilization, had walls though, often several layers of walls built on top of each other as the given cities were pillaged and rebuilt.

Its not confusing to anybody vaguely aware of ancient history.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#39

Post by jeltz »

quotemstr wrote: post #23
weavie wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They believed their writing was gifted to them by the Gods. According to them they were not the first, they were just the next in line after the Gods.

Sure. They had a creation mythos like everyone else. What they didn't have is evidence of a real precursor civilization to ground those myths. The classical Greeks could see Mycenaean ruins.

Not as many as later civilizations but there are buildings that likely pre-date the Sumerian civilization like the desert kites. And in Syria and Turkey there are megaliths and ruins which are older than Sumer which builders the Sumerians might have know of from oral history.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#40

Post by ch4s3 »

austin-cheney wrote: post #32
7thaccount wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the evidence of cities existing 45,000 years ago? I thought the earliest we had was around 10,000 years ago in Turkey?

According to Wikipedia it is 25,000 years ago and in Eastern Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism#Requirements_for_per... The 45,000 years ago number I referred to earlier comes from sources that are not online. Either way, the start of human settlement occurred on the Eastern European plain during the ice age, which is far before anything in Anatolia or Mesopotamia.

> The 45,000 years ago number I referred to earlier comes from sources that are not online.

Are you referring to a book, or unpublished academic work? Is there a particular scholar you have in mind?

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