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Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

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Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#21

Post by weavie »

quotemstr wrote: post #16

I've always wondered whether the Sumerians knew they were the first. Past empires, lost civilizations, and ancient artifacts have always fascinated us. The first museum emerges is Mesopotamia around 530 BC; the Egyptian obelisk installed next to the brand-new Colosseum in Rome was older then than the Colosseum is now; legends of giants and heroes of bygone ages are literary universals. We hunger for the past. But the…

They believed their writing was gifted to them by the Gods. According to them they were not the first, they were just the next in line after the Gods.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#22

Post by austin-cheney »

The article misstates a few things in its opening.

Evidence so far indicates humans first settled into fixed colonies/cities around 45,000 years ago starting in eastern Europe. These people are referred to as neolithic, where as mobile units without a fixed geography are referred to as archaic. It wasn't until around 10,000 years ago that humans first civilized (around 8,000 to 7,000 BCE).

So this means people, the same mentioned in the article, civilized several thousand years before they had writing. The only real difference between neolithic settlements and civilization is governance and influence. Writing is beneficial, but influence can be accomplish through various means including: arts, religion, culture, organized military activity, and more.

It is also worth pointing that civilization was extremely unappealing to the uncivilized who first encountered it. The most immediate symptoms of civilization are social restrictions, class stratification, and loss of mobility of which all are essentially opposing aspects of freedom.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#23

Post by quotemstr »

weavie wrote: post #21
quotemstr wrote: post #16

I've always wondered whether the Sumerians knew they were the first. Past empires, lost civilizations, and ancient artifacts have always fascinated us. The first museum emerges is Mesopotamia around 530 BC; the Egyptian obelisk installed next to the brand-new Colosseum in Rome was older then than the Colosseum is now; legends of giants and heroes of bygone ages are literary universals. We hunger for the past. But the…

They believed their writing was gifted to them by the Gods. According to them they were not the first, they were just the next in line after the Gods.

Sure. They had a creation mythos like everyone else. What they didn't have is evidence of a real precursor civilization to ground those myths. The classical Greeks could see Mycenaean ruins.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#24

Post by dec0dedab0de »

datadeft wrote: post #2

* that we are aware of as of 2024. I think most historical discoveries should be prefixed or suffixed with this because as we dig up more things we might learn that there was an even older writing system (in this case).

I think most of everything should be taught like this, especially from a young age. Too many people assume that other people already figured it all out, and never bother challenging facts or looking deeper. I think part of it is about not questioning authority, but it’s mostly about fear of the unknown.

In some corporate environments there is pushback against so-called “weasel words.” Which is fine to call out for contractual obligations, but it is ridiculous when used against an engineer being honest.

I once got reprimanded for explaining that “exactly once” is not possible in a distributed system, but I was going to do “at most once” and put some mitigations in place to handle most failure scenarios. Management was mad at me for not using more concrete language, even once they understood the problem.

I bring it up because I believe it is a result of whatever personality traits that got them in management to begin with. The same types of people manage schools and publications, and they would fight back against a pedantic nerd saying “as far as we know” because they don’t want to use weak language.

I don’t have a solution, but it has always been upsetting to me.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#25

Post by myriadoptimum »

James Scott, in his book Against the Grain, offers an in-depth and nuanced exploration of the factors that led to the appearance of projects such as writing and irrigation channels in Mesopotamia as intensive agriculture gradually became the only possible means of sustenance. There was a lot more going on than a simple/linear intensification, and it was less cut and dry than the brief summary given of that development in this article would suggest.

Jennifer Pournelle's 2003 paper[1] presenting new evidence for the area's landscape in antiquity is also quite eye opening, as the presence of the coast further inland than was previously believed upended a lot of long-established notions about the development of civilization there.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258858442_The_Litto...

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#26

Post by zackmorris »

snapcaster wrote: post #19
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like something like that, but I wouldn’t want it to be run by the government.

Sure, really just fired off my comment without much thought and obviously would suck in real life since it would be hijacked by politicians. Not wedded to the government part, kinda just pretending US gov capable of public services like this

When I was growing up in the 1980s, the government provided public services like this and more.

Somewhere along the way a government of the people, by the people, for the people, perished from the earth.

Not from just one ailment like trickle-down economics, but from a thousand cuts delivered retroactively by revisionist history, until even the youth became their own wardens, and hope was finally lost.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#28

Post by 7thaccount »

austin-cheney wrote: post #22

The article misstates a few things in its opening. Evidence so far indicates humans first settled into fixed colonies/cities around 45,000 years ago starting in eastern Europe. These people are referred to as neolithic, where as mobile units without a fixed geography are referred to as archaic. It wasn't until around 10,000 years ago that humans first civilized (around 8,000 to 7,000 BCE). So this means people, the s…

What is the evidence of cities existing 45,000 years ago? I thought the earliest we had was around 10,000 years ago in Turkey?

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#29

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

7thaccount wrote: post #28
austin-cheney wrote: post #22

The article misstates a few things in its opening. Evidence so far indicates humans first settled into fixed colonies/cities around 45,000 years ago starting in eastern Europe. These people are referred to as neolithic, where as mobile units without a fixed geography are referred to as archaic. It wasn't until around 10,000 years ago that humans first civilized (around 8,000 to 7,000 BCE). So this means people, the s…

What is the evidence of cities existing 45,000 years ago? I thought the earliest we had was around 10,000 years ago in Turkey?

A "city" is a specific type of "settlement" -- one that has walls and can't produce its own food.

Re: Ancient Sumerians created the first writing system

#30

Post by dec0dedab0de »

PrismCrystal wrote: post #20
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like something like that, but I wouldn’t want it to be run by the government.

The Nordic countries have a longstanding tradition of state-run “folk high schools”. In fact, in modern economies where it is harder for unemployed middle-age people to find new work, and AI might cause unemployment in more sectors, this kind of state intervention seems like a good way to keep adults doing something enriching instead of doomscrolling or drinking all day. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_high_sc…

The equivalent in america would be non credit personal enrichment courses at the community college. Though they specialize on a specific skill. Some are useful in daily life, others are hobbies. For a humorous example watch Parks and Rec season 2 episode 14.

Which makes me take back what I said. I wouldn’t mind if local government did it.

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