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I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

benhouston3d.com

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Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#251

Post by Woeps »

tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I don't mind K8s, and it can be usefull if you just stay to the core essentials. But I do agree that there seems to be the sentiment:"Everybody has to like it!"

And I mostly think that this is because our collective bias for everything Big Tech does is good. While often it just depends. Just because Google does X or Y doesn't mean it will work for everybody else.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#252

Post by paddy_m »

t-writescode wrote: post #114
voidfunc wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

> Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team I think this is where the big difference is. If you're leading a team and introduced all good practices from the start, then the k8s and Terraform or whatever config files can never get so very complicated that a Gordian knot isn't created. Perhaps k8s is nice and easy to use - many of the commands certainly are, in my experience…

Thank you. I can always xargs grep for a function name, at worst. Dir() in python at a debugger for other things. With YAML, kubernetes and other devops hotness, I frequently can’t even find the relevant scripts/YAML that are executed nor their codebases.

This also happens with configuration based packaging setups. Python hatch in particular, but sometimes node/webpack/rollup/vite.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#253

Post by cyberpunk »

jq-r wrote: post #194
voidfunc wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

Those "necessary" add-ons and sidecars are out of control, but its the people problem. I'm part of the infra team and we manage just couple of k8s clusters, but those are quite big and have very high traffic load. The k8s + terraform code is simple, with no hacks, reliable and easy to upgrade. Our devs love it, we love it too and all of this makes my job pleasant and as little stressful as possible. But we recently h…

To be fair, istio and cilium are extremely useful tools to have under your belt.

There’s always a period of “omgwhat” when new senior engineers join and they want to improve things. There’s a short window between joining and getting bogged into a million projects where this is possible.

Embrace it I recon.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#254

Post by regularfry »

torginus wrote: post #201
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

Kubernetes starts sucking at first sight and is kind of the sign of the ailment of modern times. Let me try to explain: First, you encounter the biggest impedance mismatch between cloud and on prem: Kubernetes works with pods, while AWS works with instances as the unit of useful work, so they must map to each other, right? Wrong, first each instance needs to run a Kubernetes node, which duplicates the management infr…

It really, really wants a higher-level abstraction layer over the top of it. I can see how you'd build something heroku-like with it, but exposing app developers to it just seems cruel.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#255

Post by mitjam »

coding123 wrote: post #94

Cloud Run and K8S are not in the same space. One is to make the infra generic, Cloud Run ONLY works on GCP.

Yes, but it's based on KNative (actually it's a managed KNative service[1]) which is based on K8s. You can get a dev experience similar to CloudRun with KNative on K8s.

[1]: https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/serverless/knative-ba...

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#256

Post by wordofx »

tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I’m confused. Do you hate cloud or the container shit? Cloud is awesome. Containers is dumb as hell for 99% of the applications hacker news kids work on.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#257

Post by everfrustrated »

whatever1 wrote: post #30
valenterry wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let's say you want to deploy server instances. Let's keep it simple and say you want to have 2 instances running. You want to have zero-downtime-deployment. And you want to have these 2 instances be able to access configuration (that contains secrets). You want load balancing, with the option to integrate an external load balancer. And, last, you want to be able to run this setup both locally and also on at least…

Why does a startup need zero-downtime-deployment? Who cares if your site is down for 5 seconds? (This is how long it takes to restart my Django instance after updates).

If you're doing CD where every push is an automated deploy a small company might easily have a hundred deploys a day.

So you need seamless deployments.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#258

Post by regularfry »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #235
bluehatbrit wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developers want to use PaaS and also AWS or Azure so they can put it on their resume for the future. I think this is a little disingenuous. Developers want to use them because they already know them. The services composing them are also often well documented by the provider. I say all of that as someone trying to move a company away from aws, and over to our own hardware.

I want to use them because I'm not paying for it and managing your own hardware is a pain in the ass I'd rather avoid when I could just code instead. Which is not to say that using your own hardware isn't smart, but it is definitely miserable.

In my experience you swap managing your own hardware for managing intensely obtuse service configurations, pretty much 1:1. That might be preferable but I see a lot of folks approach it like the tradeoff doesn't exist.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#259

Post by chromanoid »

tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

IMO the actual experience you want is something as simple as you can do with those old-school simple PHP-based "serverless" web hosters. You just upload your stuff and maybe configure a database URL and that's it.

Regarding AWS, function.zip Lambda + DynamoDB + S3 + SQS is basically this at "enterprise-grade".

Now you have the in-between left, where you want enterprise-grade (availability, scaling and fault tolerance) but with a catch (like lower costs, more control, data sovereignty or things that are not as serverless as you want, e.g. search engine etc.). In these cases you will run into many trade-off decisions, that may lead you to K8s, cloud specific stacks and also simple VM ClickOps / ShellOps setups.

As long as you can still be on the pet instead of cattle range of problems, K8s is not what you want. But as soon as you want cattle, reproducible throw-away online environments etc. "just have a VM or a physical server" will become a "build your own private cloud solution" that may or may not become a bad private cloud / K8s.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#260

Post by MortyWaves »

ajayvk wrote: post #10
OtomotO wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just the hype moving on. Every generation has to make similar mistakes again and again. I am sure if we had the opportunity and the hype was there we would've used k8s in 2005 as well. The same thing is true for e.g. JavaScript on the frontend. I am currently migrating a project from React to HTMX. Suddenly there is no build step anymore. Some people were like: "That's possible?" Yes, yes it is and it turns out…

Along those lines, I am building https://github.com/claceio/clace for teams to deploy internal tools. It provides a Cloud Run type interface to run containers, including scaling down to zero. It implements an application server than runs containerized apps. Since HTMX was mentioned, Clace also makes it easy to build Hypermedia driven apps.

Would you be open to non Python support as well? This tool seems useful, very useful in fact, but I mainly use .NET (which yes can run very well in containers).
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