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I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

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Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#181

Post by noname44 »

madjam002 wrote: post #172

I don't get these recent anti-Kubernetes posts, yes if you're deploying a simple app then there are alternatives which are easier, but as your app starts to get more complex then suddenly you'll be wishing you had the Kubernetes API. I'd use Kubernetes even if I was spinning up a single VM and installing k3s on it. It's a universal deployment target. Spinning up a cluster isn't the easiest thing, but I don't understa…

lol, even if you have complex apps there are always easier solutions than Kubernetes. It is evident that you have never run such an app and are just talking about it. Otherwise, you would know the issues you would encounter with every update due to breaking changes. Not to mention that you need a high level of expertise and a dedicated team, which costs far more than running an app on Fargate. Recommending a managed Kubernetes cluster is nonsense, as it goes against the whole purpose of Kubernetes itself.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#182

Post by Timber-6539 »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #46
ChrisArchitect wrote: post #18

Related: Dear friend, you have built a Kubernetes https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42226005

People don’t want solutions, they want holistic experiences. Kubernetes feels bad and a pile of scripts feels good . Proudly declaring how much you buy into feelings feels even better!

Those pile of scripts are the solutions on which Kubernetes was built on. And the fact that they never break is why greybeards still use them over the complexity of shiny new things.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#183

Post by awestroke »

voidfunc wrote: post #107
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

I would buy that book in a heartbeat. All documentation and guides on kubernetes seem to assume you already know why things are done a certain way

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#184

Post by threeseed »

t-writescode wrote: post #108
threeseed wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kubernetes has a proportional learning curve. If you're used to managing platforms e.g. networking, load balancers, security etc. then it's intuitive and easy. If you're used to everything being managed for you then it will feel steep.

I think this is only true if the original k8s cluster you're operating against was written by an expert and laid out as such. If you're entering into k8s land with someone else's very complicated mess across hundreds of files, you're going to be in for a bad time. A big problem, I feel, is that if you don't have an expert design the k8s system from the start, it's just going to be a horrible time; and, many people, w…

The exact can be said for your Terraform, Pulumi, Shell scripts etc. Not to mention unique config for every component and piece of infrastructure.

At least Kubernetes is all YAML, consistent and can be tested locally.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#185

Post by bluehatbrit »

ozim wrote: post #154
rcleveng wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they mean PAAS vs IAAS when they say "move to cloud"?

Mostly business guys don’t know the difference but we are running on local cloud provider and they think of it is not on Azure or AWS it is not in cloud - they understand that we run stuff on servers but they also don’t understand VPS is IaaS. Developers want to use PaaS and also AWS or Azure so they can put it on their resume for the future.

> Developers want to use PaaS and also AWS or Azure so they can put it on their resume for the future.

I think this is a little disingenuous. Developers want to use them because they already know them. The services composing them are also often well documented by the provider.

I say all of that as someone trying to move a company away from aws, and over to our own hardware.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#186

Post by BiteCode_dev »

voidfunc wrote: post #107
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

Would buy. But you probably should teach a few live courses before writing it because of expert blindness. Otherwise you will miss thr mark.

Would pay for a decent remote live course intro.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#187

Post by DanielHB »

voidfunc wrote: post #107
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

> What does fucking kill me in the Kubernetes ecosystem is the amount of add-on crap that is pitched as "necessary". Sidecars... so many sidecars.

Yeah it is the same with terraform modules, I was trying to argument at a previous job that we should stick to a single module (the cloud provider module) but people just love adding crap if it saves them 5 lines of configuration. Said crap of course adding tons of unnecessary resources in your cloud that no one understands.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#188

Post by DanielHB »

devjab wrote: post #121
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I don’t mind the cloud, but even in enterprise organisations I fail to see the value of a lot of the more complex tools. I’ve anlways worked with Azure because Denmark is basically Microsoft territory in a lot of non-tech organisations because of the synergy between pricing and IT operations staff. I’ve done bicep, terraform and both Kubernetes and the managed (I forgot what azure conteiner apps running on top of wha…

Terraform has the same problem as Kubernetes sidecars with terraform providers trying to do magic for you. If you stick to the cloud platform provider it is actually much nicer than using the CLI.

Although my experience is with AWS, I find the terraform AWS provider docs better documentation than the official AWS docs for different options. If they don't answer any question I have right away they at least point me where to look for answers in the mess that is AWS docs.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#189

Post by datadeft »

tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

One thing that might help you in this madness is:

https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes

Type safe, fat finger safe representation of your YAMLs is grossly underrated.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#190

Post by szszrk »

sbstp wrote: post #136
paxys wrote: post #48

> Kubernetes comes with substantial infrastructure costs that go beyond DevOps and management time. The high cost arises from needing to provision a bare-bones cluster with redundant management nodes. That's your problem right there. You really don't want to be setting up and managing a cluster from scratch for anything less than a datacenter-scale operation. If you are already on a cloud provider just use their mana…

Most control planes are not free anymore, they cost like 70$/mo on AWS & GCP. Used to be a while back.

That's around the cost of a single VM (cheapest 8GB ram I found quickly).

Azure has a free tier with control plane completely free (but no SLA) - great deal for test clusters and testing infra.

If you are that worried about costs, then public cloud may not be for you at all, or you should look at ECS/App containers or serverless.

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