Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State • Hacker News Board

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#41

Post by totetsu » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 2:53 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #35

brailsafe wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I often reflect on some of my career mistakes, especially when evaluating current decisions within the context of a job or interacting with other institutions, and what I wish I'd learnt earlier would be to "read a room". Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job…

> Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job is taking moral stances on things, having political opinions, provoking what others might see as unnecessary conflict, in any form. Up to a certain point. That answer didn't hold up well at the Nuremberg trials. After a point…

Not trying to troll here, but, what does something like Nuremberg trails matter in a country where someone who can incite an insurrection and then become president again, or a world where international criminal court orders are ignored?

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#42

Post by passing_by_and » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 2:56 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #35

brailsafe wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I often reflect on some of my career mistakes, especially when evaluating current decisions within the context of a job or interacting with other institutions, and what I wish I'd learnt earlier would be to "read a room". Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job…

> Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job is taking moral stances on things, having political opinions, provoking what others might see as unnecessary conflict, in any form. Up to a certain point. That answer didn't hold up well at the Nuremberg trials. After a point…

That only happened because they needed some show trials to pacify people. A few were picked to take the fall and the rest were quietly brought to universities and government labs all across western powers. The United States has a proud tradition of totally ignoring all the agreements that came out of those trials.

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#43

Post by yieldcrv » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 2:58 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #35

brailsafe wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I often reflect on some of my career mistakes, especially when evaluating current decisions within the context of a job or interacting with other institutions, and what I wish I'd learnt earlier would be to "read a room". Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job…

> Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job is taking moral stances on things, having political opinions, provoking what others might see as unnecessary conflict, in any form. Up to a certain point. That answer didn't hold up well at the Nuremberg trials. After a point…

Given that this highly improbable outcome involves two separate coalitions of countries invading yours from both sides, “read the room” is a safe bet for all parties to make, including last minute flights to Argentina

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#44

Post by mistercheph » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 3:02 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #35

brailsafe wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I often reflect on some of my career mistakes, especially when evaluating current decisions within the context of a job or interacting with other institutions, and what I wish I'd learnt earlier would be to "read a room". Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job…

> Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job is taking moral stances on things, having political opinions, provoking what others might see as unnecessary conflict, in any form. Up to a certain point. That answer didn't hold up well at the Nuremberg trials. After a point…

What modern corporate employee wouldn't (haven't?) sleepwalk into perpetuating horrors on innocent people and then really and truly believe it when they say "I was just doing my job..." I am not excluding myself, we have not magically solved the social/political circumstances that lead to the second world war, and we are doomed to repeat those mistakes if we take for granted that those structures just fizzled away because we blood sacrificed millions of people and then the victors did a rain dance over the burial mound.

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#45

Post by dmix » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 3:08 AM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #7

> “My career has been destroyed by multiple administrators at NCSU who united together and completely ignored the EthicsPoint System and its promises to employees,” Brain wrote. Well, lesson learned. Take your ethical concerns to the public/press instead. The retaliation would be just as swift as it is with The Process. Or: abandon ship and leave the system to consume itself.

He probably cared more about losing a job he loved, the startup community he was fostering in NC, and his https://ecoprt.com/ project than about publicly fighting a battle over a minor ethical complaint about a shady hire... at least in the early days before it snowballed.

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#46

Post by RachelF » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 3:09 AM UTC

addcn wrote: post #26

I met Marshall a few times. He was a good teacher and someone who had a positive impact on several successive classes of students who wanted to start companies and build meaningful products + technologies on that campus. And I trust (quite a bit) that whatever he brought to light should be followed up on - if no other reason than to respect his memory. I hope it is taken seriously and those who retaliated find themse…

howstuffworks.com in the 1990's was an amazing website

I just went to it and had a look. Turned to junk now by the looks of things.

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#47

Post by mijoharas » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 3:10 AM UTC

xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #8

The website is geoblocked in the EU. Mirror: https://archive.ph/R39hz

One thing I wonder: It says it's geoblocked because of GDPR.

Have they geoblocked California too because of the CCPA?

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#48

Post by Onavo » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 3:10 AM UTC

gdjskshh wrote: post #15

It's sad to see a group of engineering professors having political squabbles involving unethical behavior in response to an ethics complaint. Ethics are supposed to be a core part of engineering, not too dissimilar from medicine. Good thing those folks are in academia where they can't hurt the rest of us.

Engineering ethics is completely different from classroom ethics. Engineering ethics is all about compliance. If you build a missile to kill people, you better make sure it works as described. Who it kills is none of your business but if it doesn't work as described then it's a breach of "engineering ethics". It's funny when people on HN call for the "professionalisation" of software engineering. The only person who benefits is management who will happily throw the poor engineers under the bus the moment a self driving car hits somebody. Hold the entire organization responsible, starting from the top, not the lowly engineer.

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#49

Post by dmix » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 3:10 AM UTC

patrickhogan1 wrote: post #22

This story really hits home for me. My dad was a physics teacher, and these complaints sound all too familiar—especially this part: "I did what the University told me to do, and then these administrators ruined my life for it." It’s frustrating how often dedicated educators are forced to navigate politics instead of focusing on teaching. The best educators are usually the least political, while those who thrive in po…

> The best educators are usually the least political, while those who thrive in politics often end up as administrators.

The lady he accused of ethics violations was named Dept Head around the same time he made the complaint. An "old head" raising an issue against a new rising star...

Re: Marshall Brain died hours after alleging retaliation at NC State

#50

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Wed, Nov 27, 2024, 3:12 AM UTC

brailsafe wrote: post #25

simpaticoder wrote: post #12

His story is a cautionary tale about real life vs idealism. The two come into conflict frequently, and sometimes violently. Nothing is more difficult or dangerous than holding power to account; the mechanisms we imagine are in place to hold power accountable exist purely in that imagination. The personal feelings of shame, guilt, or ethical responsibility we imagine there to be, or the social pressure brought to bear…

Yep. I often reflect on some of my career mistakes, especially when evaluating current decisions within the context of a job or interacting with other institutions, and what I wish I'd learnt earlier would be to "read a room". Sure, there is technically a process for reporting wrongdoing, but there's no process for reporting wrongdoing and keeping your job, and keeping your job is more important. What isn't your job…

While I agree and even accept this answer in theory, I have a hard time putting it in practice. Just today it seems I unnecessarily ruffled some executive feathers by pointing out some -- otherwise clear -- issues no one dares to mention and I am wondering now if that was even worthwhile. After all, I am not paid for extra for it. Regardless of the choice made by executives, the only thing that would change is the amount of support work I would do for it.

I know for a fact that 9 out of 10 it is better for me ( and my career ) to stay quiet, but sometimes I just can't stay out of my way.