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Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

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Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#191

Post by tokai »

shiroiushi wrote: post #164
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because other forms of mass travel such as trains and buses, which barely have any security checks, rarely get blown up by bombs smuggled on to them, or hijacked by guns smuggled onto them.

That's because you can't really drive trains into buildings, and while you could technically do it with a bus, it's not that feasible nor that damaging. Flying a huge intercontinental airliner fully loaded with fuel into a building is quite different. There's very good practical reasons the terrorists chose airplanes and not trains or buses.

Rail related terrorism is not uncommon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in...

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#192

Post by nonameiguess »

bediger4000 wrote: post #89
aaomidi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I’ve heard this a lot, but how can we actually test this? The only realistic test I can imagine here is that the TSA shuts down for a decade and we see what happens?

There's never been a bomb in the maze/lines before security. Why not?

A small comment that will probably go mostly unnoticed, but this question has always bothered me too and it's a second opportunity inside of an hour to talk about working at Disneyland post 9/11. We instituted bag checks at the intake turnstiles for the first time after that, and the result was enormous lines that backed up all the way to the streets. It left me wondering why nobody just detonated a bomb or fired the entire magazine of an Uzi into the crowd waiting to get into the park. You could still kill anywhere from hundreds to thousands of people, it's still at Disneyland. What were we really accomplishing by making it less likely to happen in the park, but possibly making it even easier to happen right outside, given the gridlock, how tightly everyone was packed, and the impossibility of hiding anywhere or running away?

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#193

Post by 0x457 »

kelnos wrote: post #158
0x457 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What that has to do with TSA Checkpoint at the airport? How many people go to through that checkpoint isn't dictated by how automated it is - it's dictated by how many people are flying. All this thing does it speeds up process of you getting through TSA.

It doesn't, though. I haven't seen shorter lines or faster-moving lines at SFO, for example, since they implemented facial recognition. And it seems like they have the same number of people staffing the ID checkpoint as they did before as well.

Well, I've seen faster lines in LAX, so YMMV?

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#194

Post by shaboinkin »

What I find funny about their sign that says “your photo will be deleted”, it fails to specify how many memcpy’s of the bits making up the photo have been made and if they made any detours along to the way to various other software systems that may save those bits across various disks. Does “your photo will be deleted” mean ALL bits making up the photo across any systems are wiped from all records? I doubt it. I also doubt if a database lookup is done on premise on closed networked systems with no possible ways to connect to the outside world.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#195

Post by nonameiguess »

Lots of comments come up here every time TSA facial recognition makes the front page asking what the difference is between this and the human looking at your ID.

The answer is what happens when you don't match. I have long hair and a beard in my driver's license photo. I don't now. The license I had before I was able to renew without ever having to go in person for 15 years because of holes in California's laws about renewing driver's licenses remotely for anyone who has ever served on active duty military out of state. I have very rarely had a driver's license photo that actually looked like me, and TSA agents have commented on it pretty frequently, saying I don't look like the person on the ID I'm presenting. They let me through anyway, because what else are they supposed to do? Identification cards are in and of themselves somewhat of an element of security theater in that sense. The data are frozen in time whereas reality may constantly change.

The only reason this was ever the case was the fact that your identification photo was not regularly updated to match your current face. If the TSA is constantly taking more photos of you, then potentially it can be. The obvious next phase in a program like this is to store the photos and build a current and updateable model of what every person in the US looks like, eventually not needing the ID cards at all.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#196

Post by dr-detroit »

swat535 wrote: post #175
netsharc wrote: post #12

When entering China, they take your fingerprints, iris, and I guess face too... I was there in 2019, at one point I was at an airport, and a screen was bragging, "Stand where the camera can see your face, and we'll tell you which way to your gate.". It worked too, the screen displayed my name, flight number and direction to my gate. And implicitly, "We can identify you wherever you are.".

Same thing when entering Japan, they even have machines where you can do it yourself

[dead]

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#197

Post by godelski »

MarkMarine wrote: post #182
godelski wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They already have a little data, I fail to see why I shouldn't let them have everything. That's the extreme version of your comment. But it is also a common sentiment that people have around social media and other data collection

I don’t see opting out as an effective method to counter over reach in this case, sounds like it just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff and the rare people that choose to opt out. Is the idea that a critical mass of people opt out and that slows down security enough that this pilot program is viewed as a failure? The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effec…

  > The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effective
It's not an "OR" problem. You can do both.

  > just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff
The point is to inconvenience them. I'm willing to bet you are exaggerating even to yourself how minimal this is. Besides, little things add up. It's why you're exhausted with this in the first place. It is how we got here. The accumulation of little things.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#198

Post by godelski »

shiroiushi wrote: post #161
godelski wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, that its the intent. The downside of the US is that it moves slow. But the upside is that it’s the oldest country in the world if you measure by (codified) constitution. You might think European countries are older but Germany didn’t exist till the late 1940’s. If you really want to stretch it you can argue early 1800’s but that’s facetious. The point is to be highly distributed. Many keys to power. It makes…

>it’s the oldest country in the world if you measure by (codified) constitution I think a better way of phrasing it might be "a continuous system of government". Germany certainly existed before the late 1940s, but the system of government was obviously very, very different.

  > Defining what is a country, let alone a continuous empire is very messy business with a lot of national narrative tied in
Definitely gets fuzzy with definitions when we have things like Prussia, German unification, the German Empire, and all that. Especially, again, with the national narrative. It is messy business and I think we often pretned it is a lot cleaner than it actually is.

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#199

Post by godelski »

bilekas wrote: post #163
godelski wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, that its the intent. The downside of the US is that it moves slow. But the upside is that it’s the oldest country in the world if you measure by (codified) constitution. You might think European countries are older but Germany didn’t exist till the late 1940’s. If you really want to stretch it you can argue early 1800’s but that’s facetious. The point is to be highly distributed. Many keys to power. It makes…

> But the upside is that it’s the oldest country in the world if you measure by (codified) constitution. Iceland would very much like a word about this. But your point in fair, maybe phrased a bit wrong.

  >> Please correct me but cite so I can learn more
Wiki says

  > The current constitution was first instituted on 17 June 1944 when Iceland became a republic; since then, it has been amended seven times.
The earliest date I even see in the wiki is 1849 which isn't even really on topic.

The official document also says 1944[0]

  CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF ICELAND
  (No. 33, 17 June 1944, as amended 30 May 1984, 31 May 1991, 28 June 1995 and 24 June 1999)
So I'm going to need that citation because I'm having a hard time verifying what you're saying.

[0] https://www.government.is/library/01-Ministries/Prime-Minist...

Re: Senators say TSA's facial recognition program is out of control

#200

Post by MarkMarine »

godelski wrote: post #197
MarkMarine wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see opting out as an effective method to counter over reach in this case, sounds like it just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff and the rare people that choose to opt out. Is the idea that a critical mass of people opt out and that slows down security enough that this pilot program is viewed as a failure? The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effec…

> The other form of fighting back against this, pushing lawmakers, seems far more effective It's not an "OR" problem. You can do both. > just makes life slightly less convenient for the TSA staff The point is to inconvenience them. I'm willing to bet you are exaggerating even to yourself how minimal this is. Besides, little things add up. It's why you're exhausted with this in the first place. It is how we got here.…

You’re right about that, and I salute your principled stance, but the last thing I want to deal with is making a protest at the checkpoint before I can get to the lounge.

These people are standing between me and a free glass of mid wine and the most comfortable place I’m going to be for the next hours. They also have basically unlimited power to make my day worse, delaying me, searching me, doing all kinds of real violations of my rights.

Frankly, the quicker robots take their jobs the better, I hope this speeds it up.

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