ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials • Hacker News Board

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#951

Post by underdeserver » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 7:19 PM UTC

carb wrote: post #927

underdeserver wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it that you believe there is consensus about?

A quick check of your recent HN comments proves to me that you have only ever researched / trusted a single narrative and talking about this with you won't be very productive. I think you would find it useful, even for supporting your current arguments more substantially, to read any of the following (in order of recommendation): - The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - The Holocaust Industry - Except for Palestine I…

I appreciate your condescension, but if you believe a few recent comments constitute proof of what I researched or trusted, perhaps this discussion isn't very productive.

I've been reading multiple outlets in English, French, Hebrew and Arabic (using machine translation), as well as history books and articles, for quite a while before October 7th and have formed opinions. I don't feel I need your help supporting them.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#952

Post by salawat » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 7:19 PM UTC

para_parolu wrote: post #886

netsharc wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "The Muslims/Muslim countries won't do X, and therefore why should we?" argument is funny and depressing to me. Why won't they do X? Because maybe in your mind you think they're savages/less civilized. Less, that is, compared to you/your community's (in whatever scale: nation, race, hemisphere). But if you're saying "If they don't do X, we can behave the same", isn't that a call for you/your community to ab…

I think the whole civilized/uncivilized spectrum is just “who has bigger gun” contest.

The essence of civility is having the means, motive, and opportunity to delete someone/something from the calculus of life with violence, and choosing not to do so.

That is to say, anyone slaughtering one another have abandoned all pretense of civility.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#953

Post by aguaviva » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 7:26 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #525

pagade wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antisemitic. Every time I hear this word, I can’t help but think of its irony—a term used exclusively for describing discrimination against one community, as if prejudice against them carries more weight than against any other. Perhaps, though, it serves as the best reflection of our hypocrisy.

Especially when you consider "semites" are a member of an ancient or modern people from southwestern Asia, such as the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, or Arabs. It can also refer to a descendant of these peoples. So, many Palestinians are Semites as well. And one may conclude when Ovadia Yosef, a former Chief Rabbi of Israel, says: “It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilat…

The thing is, the term "Semite" is (except in very archaic contexts) pretty much dictionary-only.

It exists, and has semantic validity. But it does not in any way describe a group that has ever had any kind of common identity. Or as Wikipedia (itself a kind of a dictionary) puts it:

    The terminology is now largely unused outside the grouping "Semitic languages" in linguistics.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#954

Post by aguaviva » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 7:38 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #760

GordonS wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. My understanding is that's because it's usually difficult to show intent . However, in this case, not only do we have an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes, but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. My biggest concern over this is what the US and/or Mossad will do...

[flagged]

The effectiveness, and moreover the underlying sincerity of these "warnings" have been widely and severely criticized. Meanwhile, the IDF has gone right on bombing people even when they went to areas they were told would be "safe". At the end of the day -- they're just lip service, basically.

Gaza evacuation warnings from IDF contain many errors, BBC finds - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68687749

Israel's warning system and evacuation alerts leave Gaza residents confused - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-21/israel-gaza-map-block...

They Were Told They Were in a Safe Area. Then Came the Missiles - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/15/world/middleeast/israel-h...

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#955

Post by DeepSeaTortoise » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 7:42 PM UTC

owenversteeg wrote: post #893

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren…

I'd argue that the "rules-based world order" as most people perceive it never really existed. Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s. Back then, most countries played nice with the international treaties even if there were no penalties for noncompliance, right? No - it just appeared that way. The 90s and 2000s were a unipolar world, the peak of the American Empire, and America made it emine…

> I'd argue that the "rules-based world order" as most people perceive it never really existed. Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s. Back then, most countries played nice with the international treaties even if there were no penalties for noncompliance

The utter disrespect for the CFE treaty during that period is exactly what got us the Ukraine war right now.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#956

Post by DeepSeaTortoise » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 7:54 PM UTC

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #640

fmajid wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netanyahu and Gallant will no longer be able to travel to Europe, and likely will not want to fly over Europe either (thus not to the US either).

Presumably if they get invited to Europe it will be with assurance from the state that nothing happens to them. And traveling uninvited is probably a bad move anyway. So not much difference. If you mean to imply that Europe is somehow going to shoot down their planes if they fly over that’s obviously absurd.

"Invitations" for government officials are pretty much invitations in name only.

Many of the emails of Assad and his government have been leaked and show in great detail how various governments interact with each other. And how Assad ran his country by forwarding NYT articles...

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#957

Post by DoodahMan » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 7:55 PM UTC

tuyguntn wrote: post #219

If Netanyahu and Gallant declared as war criminals, does it also mean whoever helped them during the 2024 is complicit? Wondering what happens to so many Western leaders who supported Netanyahu unconditionally.

that is a good question. we've seen folks from the Biden/Harris admin resign over military aid to Israel, and it appears the admin indeed was in violation of US law when said aid was given. could they face criminal charges for complicity? i find it hard to believe they had no idea what was going on.

another question i have regards the future: it appears the US is working on even more aid for Israel, see Bernie's latest attempt to prevent that. now that leadership in Israel has warrants out for them, will the US aid continue? certainly would be a bad look to continue aiding Israel at this point i reckon.

what an absolute tragic mess all around. i'm ashamed of our complicity, and sadly will not be surprised one bit if we continue giving them aid despite it all.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#958

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 8:08 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #663

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren…

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? Absolutely this matters. This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal. We also don't kno…

> We also don't know if there are any hidden warrants for other Israelis

Honest question, are "hidden" warrants a thing at the ICC? Seems like it would be difficult, as the ICC doesn't have an enforcement arm of its own, so I would think warrant information would need to be circulated to all the treaty signers, at which case it would be pretty impossible to keep hidden. I tried searching but couldn't find anything - all the results were just about this Netanyahu situation.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#959

Post by petre » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 8:27 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #663

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren…

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? Absolutely this matters. This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal. We also don't kno…

> It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal.

They can resume business once Netanyahu is gone.

In fact Viktor Orban has already invited him to Hungary to the dismay of EU officials. His plane would need permission to fly in other countries' airspace anyway so it would be qiite a risky stunt.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#960

Post by aguaviva » Fri, Nov 22, 2024, 8:28 PM UTC

DeepSeaTortoise wrote: post #955

owenversteeg wrote: post #893

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the "rules-based world order" as most people perceive it never really existed. Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s. Back then, most countries played nice with the international treaties even if there were no penalties for noncompliance, right? No - it just appeared that way. The 90s and 2000s were a unipolar world, the peak of the American Empire, and America made it emine…

> I'd argue that the "rules-based world order" as most people perceive it never really existed. Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s. Back then, most countries played nice with the international treaties even if there were no penalties for noncompliance The utter disrespect for the CFE treaty during that period is exactly what got us the Ukraine war right now.

No, Putin's decision to launch the full-scale invasion in 2022 is what "got us" the war in Ukraine right now.

None of his claimed grievances in regard to the CFE Treaty amount to casus belli, by any rational metric. And they certainly weren't the core of what ultimately moved him to make that decision. They were just another part of his giant smokescreen, basically.

As his Deputy Foreign Minister put the matter, quite succinctly:

   Bondarev also recalled that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov screamed at US officials, including First Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman, stating that ”[Russia] needs Ukraine” and that Russia will not ”go anywhere without Ukraine” during a dinner amidst the bilateral US-Russian strategic stability talks in Geneva on January 10, 2022.[67] Bondarev added that Rybakov vulgarly demanded that the US delegation ”get out with [their] belongings [to the 1997 borders]” as US officials called for negotiations.

https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/weakness-lethal-wh...