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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#921

Post by runarberg »

bawolff wrote: post #920
runarberg wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they only need to show intent if they are being charged with genocide, however, I think in this case they are being charged with using starvation as a weapon, hindering aid, and targeting hospitals. I think the recommendation also included extermination, which is similar to genocide, but also does not require intent, but I think the voted against that. I think the evidence for the charges which were actually…

> I think the recommendation also included extermination, which is similar to genocide, but also does not require intent, but I think the voted against that. Persecution is the charge probably most similar to genocide minus a lot of the intent requirements (which was granted). The requirements for extermination (which was rejected) is basically they have to be resposible for > 50 illegal deaths (not sure on the exact…

I wonder why they didn’t go forward with the extermination charges then. It shouldn’t be to hard to find evidence of hundreds of illegal deaths. I mean the flour massacre alone has 118+ confirmed deaths back in February.

Did the prosecutor simply fail to put forward good enough evidence to convince the judges?

Not that it matters the most, the charges they did bring are serious enough.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#922

Post by geysersam »

YZF wrote: post #887
geysersam wrote: post #880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not serious to dismiss the allegations by just saying > If Israel had intended to not supply any food or water to the Palestinians [...] the bottom line is they did not do so. because several heavyweight international humanitarian organizations say that they did. Even the US government implies this when they tell Israel to open border crossings or get cut off from military aid.

It's not serious to suggest that Israel did not supply any food or water to the Palestinians when in fact it supplied plenty. Why didn't Egypt supply food and water to the Palestinians? (Before Israel took the border corridor). What other war can you provide me as an example where a the opposing side provided supplies to its enemy? Does Russia supply Ukraine with food and water? Does Ukraine supply Russia? Did the al…

Why would every major humanitarian organization be anti-Israel? It doesn't make any sense.

Besides, it's a straw man to say the claim is that no food or water is being supplied. The accusation is not that no supplies are provided. The accusation is that Israel obstructs supplies.

> The US, who has closer knowledge of what's going on on the ground, says Israel has not committed war crimes.

There are many actors with knowledge of what happens on the ground. Taking Israels closest ally to be the final judge of this claim is ridiculous.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#923

Post by alluro2 »

dotancohen wrote: post #760
GordonS wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. My understanding is that's because it's usually difficult to show intent . However, in this case, not only do we have an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes, but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. My biggest concern over this is what the US and/or Mossad will do...

[flagged]

I understand where you're coming from, and the need to put pieces together so that the image of oneself or their identity is acceptable.

However, while doing that, you're just ignoring the number of killed people. Unfortunately, there's no way to assemble that kind of image of Israel in this situation, where it's not red in blood of Palestinian civilians. Not to say that it's any different on the other side, and not engaging with any justifications for either side - just pointing out that you're ignoring some large and ugly parts of reality in how you represented your view of the situation.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#924

Post by ArnoVW »

dotancohen wrote: post #797
ArnoVW wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they have, at the same time, issued a warrant for Mohammed Diab Ibrahim Al-Masri, who is (or was) the commander of the armed part of Hamas. https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...

He's been declared dead by both Israel and Hamas. How about the Hamas leaders living in Turkey? They were just kicked out of Qatar, and being in (semi-)European Turkey should be easier to arrest, no? Remember, these Hamas leaders in Turkey actually, really, call for explicit genocide - and carry out their actions.

In law we generally prosecute those who are responsible according to the law. Not those who happen to be available so that we have someone to make pay.

Not saying that there are undoubtedly more “bad people” than just him. But that’s not how law works.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#925

Post by underdeserver »

latentcall wrote: post #684
underdeserver wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1200 dead including children and elderly. Useful. Are you serious?

Yes I am serious. Obviously 1200 dead is sad. Disregarding the emotions, on an Israeli political level it IS useful to rally the country to finally handle the Palestine problem once and for all, which is what is happening right now.

I sincerely doubt it will be once and for all. It will only end once and for all when the Palestinians make a true effort to have peace based on 67 borders, and that's not happening any time soon.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#926

Post by chakintosh »

bushbaba wrote: post #835
insane_dreamer wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> state of Palestine pushed hard and persisted for years to become an ICC member good for them; is there some reason they shouldn't have?

[flagged]

It's a country that was stolen, gutted and defaced when Israel was created. So yeah, i'm not surprised people like you still think Palestine is not a state...

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#927

Post by carb »

underdeserver wrote: post #642
carb wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. #1 this topic is not as divisive as it may seem. There is consensus as to what is happening and only a minority of the world thinks otherwise. #2 Israel is a major tech partner and most large tech companies have offices in Tel Aviv. Many startups that we discuss here are headquartered in Tel Aviv. The head of state of the country having an ICC arrest warrant and the situation at large have major consequen…

What is it that you believe there is consensus about?

A quick check of your recent HN comments proves to me that you have only ever researched / trusted a single narrative and talking about this with you won't be very productive.

I think you would find it useful, even for supporting your current arguments more substantially, to read any of the following (in order of recommendation):

    - The Hundred Years' War on Palestine
    - The Holocaust Industry
    - Except for Palestine
I also used to justify or overlook Israel's history and military actions in the same way but once you allow yourself to hear from scholars on both sides, you can't really go back to who you were before.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#928

Post by raxxorraxor »

helge9210 wrote: post #912
raxxorraxor wrote: post #901

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The main lesson of the Holocaust is: if someone is saying he is going to kill you, you believe him and act accordingly. Let's for the sake of argument assume you're correct and these were just words. How come at least 200k civilians in Gaza are dead as the result?

[flagged]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#929

Post by dotancohen »

ArnoVW wrote: post #924
dotancohen wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's been declared dead by both Israel and Hamas. How about the Hamas leaders living in Turkey? They were just kicked out of Qatar, and being in (semi-)European Turkey should be easier to arrest, no? Remember, these Hamas leaders in Turkey actually, really, call for explicit genocide - and carry out their actions.

In law we generally prosecute those who are responsible according to the law. Not those who happen to be available so that we have someone to make pay. Not saying that there are undoubtedly more “bad people” than just him. But that’s not how law works.

Are you suggesting that the Hamas leadership in Turkey is not responsible for the actions of Hamas? Or that pinning responsibility on one person (albeit dead) is enough so there is no more need to pin responsibility on others, even if they are available?

As a single example, Khaled Mashal is in Turkey.

  > On 3 September 2024, the U.S. Department of Justice announced criminal charges
  > against Mashal for allegedly orchestrating the 7 October attack on Israel,
  > along with other senior Hamas officials.
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mashal

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#930

Post by cutemonster »

dotancohen wrote: post #760
GordonS wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. My understanding is that's because it's usually difficult to show intent . However, in this case, not only do we have an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes, but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. My biggest concern over this is what the US and/or Mossad will do...

[flagged]

They don't always warn. There's many different people in IDF with different opinions, some want to warn first, others don't.
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