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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#861

Post by bawolff »

runarberg wrote: post #781
dotancohen wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The charges in question are that of targeting hospitals and hindering aid from reaching Gaza. Netanyahu and Gallant are being charged with the policy of targeting hospitals and hindering aid. The videos we have of people dying are only related to the crime if they show how hospitals or aid convoys were targeted. Of which we have plenty. For example the flour massacre is only one of many instances of aid being targete…

> The charges in question are that of targeting hospitals

Is it? All they say that seem relavent to that is two instances of an attack directed at a civilian object (and not from a policy perspective but more from a failing to punish a subordinate perspective). The ICC has not specified if this is about a hospital or not.

> The charges are not of war crimes, but of crimes against humanity.

Some of the charges are war crimes, others are crimes against humanity. In particular, the use of starvation as a method of war is a war crime not a crime against humanity.

> A war crime is an event which individual soldiers or commanders, or generals are guilty of. Crimes agains humanity is criminal policy which politicians are charged for.

This is incorrect, civilians who can give orders to the military (e.g. minister of defence or the PM) can be guilty of war crimes. It is also possible for soldiers & generals to commit crimes against humanity.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#862

Post by loceng »

crazygringo wrote: post #300
lupire wrote: post #276

[flagged]

Because nobody is invading Israel. Nobody's declaring war. The whole point of international law is to hold citizens of sovereign nations accountable, without having to go to war to achieve it. Nobody has legal authority to go into Israel to seize Netanyahu. But now he knows that if he tries to travel to Europe, he will be seized upon entry. That's not war, that's simply apprehending someone who there is an arrest war…

Aka civil society.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#863

Post by bawolff »

Animats wrote: post #704
edanm wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? Absolutely this matters. This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal. We also don't kno…

At some point Netanyahu will be out of power. He's been voted out of office before. He's in trouble politically. He promised a short, victorious war over Gaza, and got into a long major war against Iran and more countries instead. The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

> The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

That seems very unlikely. If the next gov really hates him they might prosecute him domestically (the things he is accused of are all illegal under israeli law), but i can't imagine they would hand him to the icc.

Not just because that would look bad, but also because icc is supposed to be a court of last resort only to be used where domestic courts fail.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#864

Post by Grimblewald »

nujabe wrote: post #649
netsharc wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "The Muslims/Muslim countries won't do X, and therefore why should we?" argument is funny and depressing to me. Why won't they do X? Because maybe in your mind you think they're savages/less civilized. Less, that is, compared to you/your community's (in whatever scale: nation, race, hemisphere). But if you're saying "If they don't do X, we can behave the same", isn't that a call for you/your community to ab…

[flagged]

raising a valid and logically sound critique of an argument is not like deflection at all, in fact it doesn't even come close to being similar, they're directly addressing the core argument. I think you might benefit from some time with a dictionary.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#865

Post by bawolff »

buran77 wrote: post #648
MrMcCall wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your dark humor made me chuckle. Thanks for that in this dire world. May the persecution of all innocent Jews, Palestinians, Ukrainians, and Africans (e.g. Ugandans) end and a world of peace and justice be established, for one and all.

The double edged sword is that proving an ongoing crime maybe stops it from unfolding but anything other than a conviction is presented as an endorsement and encouragement to continue. That could be fine if there's really no crime, not so fine if the crime just couldn't be proven. Considering here the old adage that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. They both lead to the same verdict from a court of publ…

Gallant is no longer in power. Any crime he has comitted must have happened in the past since he can't still be comitting them if he's out of office.

In general, by this stage it is expected that the prosecutor should have enough evidence to go to trial.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#866

Post by Grimblewald »

jojobas wrote: post #674
netsharc wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "The Muslims/Muslim countries won't do X, and therefore why should we?" argument is funny and depressing to me. Why won't they do X? Because maybe in your mind you think they're savages/less civilized. Less, that is, compared to you/your community's (in whatever scale: nation, race, hemisphere). But if you're saying "If they don't do X, we can behave the same", isn't that a call for you/your community to ab…

>Because maybe in your mind you think they're savages/less civilized. No, rather because they want to use the international law to their advantage, not to their detriment.

I would say that when you are being treated poorly in a way where laws exist protecting your right to demand better and realistically should be able to expect better, then using those laws is using them as intended. Sure it is to your advantage, however, the way you say it implies it is an unfair advantage, rather than simply trying to remove an unfairly applied disadvantage/detriment.

Are you suggesting they should not try to use laws to protect themselves from genocide/displacement?

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#867

Post by majikaja »

rixed wrote: post #692

As a European, I find the reactions from the US politicians as related in this Al-Jazeera article quite choking : https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/21/how-us-politicians... But maybe biased though. Anyone would have a link to some more nuanced statements with officials who do not sounds just like thugs?

If America doesn't do as Israel wants then Israel might side with another country.

And they know they'll be facing allegations themselves for helping to enable the situation.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#868

Post by bawolff »

nsomaru wrote: post #858
dotancohen wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It’s not war in terms of international law if it’s internal. Not clear cut that it’s not internal, but there’s nuance.

The icc warrant claims it is an international armed conflict.

This is important, because palestine did not ratify the amendment to the rome statue criminalizing starvation in non-international armed conflict, so that charge goes away if it is just an internal thing as opposed to an international war.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#870

Post by YZF »

nabla9 wrote: post #12

(before you jump into discussion, remember that this only about these two individuals) ICC and the prosecutor are on very solid ground here. The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The panel included people like Theodor Meron (former Legal adviser for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs), Helene Kennedy, Adrian Fulford. Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant provided plenty of ev…

[flagged]
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