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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#561

Post by bawolff »

loceng wrote: post #501
bluGill wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming the court isn't a political thing that is trying to get him regardless of evidence. The court is at least partially political, and Netanyahu will tell you this is entirely political and he wouldn't get a fair trail.

Can't you place that exact same argument on the side of the Palestinians, and add more weight to their claim - where the international community so far has allowed this, due to reason (whether money involved in politicians toeing a line or not), and so the courts decisions and political bias are more likely to favour Netanyahu over the Palestinians? There never seems to be much critical thinking on the quick one-line…

You can claim anything, but i don't think it means much if you don't back it up with some arguments.

Like this is basically only the second time that a sitting head of state of a functioning country has had a warrant issued against them. Its fairly unprecedented. I don't agree with the claims the icc is biased against israel, but the fact they are acting at all certainly shows they aren't biased for them.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#562

Post by HappyPanacea »

tsimionescu wrote: post #430
idunnoman1222 wrote: post #384

Article is pretty light on the details of the Hamas officials. I wonder if they’ll show up to their day in court.

According to Israel at least, all the ones that the warrants were requested for are now dead. Perhaps new warrants will be issued, but simply taking on the mantle of Hamas leadership will not make someone retroactively culpable for the crimes of October 7th. Culpability at this level is personal, not collective. So even though anyone who becomes the next leader of Hamas will be, by this act itself, a terrible human s…

[flagged]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#564

Post by bawolff »

loceng wrote: post #495
bluGill wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming the court isn't a political thing that is trying to get him regardless of evidence. The court is at least partially political, and Netanyahu will tell you this is entirely political and he wouldn't get a fair trail.

And the only counterweight for a person accused of genocide who is claiming they haven't committed war crimes or genocide, while they call this action "antisemetic" - the only way to determine if they are being genuine in claim it is antisemitism or political-manipulation (demonization) tool is to go to court and see all of the evidence presented. Either 40,000+ people dead or seemingly nearly all Palestinian's civil…

> And the only counterweight for a person accused of genocide

The ICC has not accused anyone of genocide. It does have juridsiction over personal criminal responsibility for gdnocide, but so far, nothing on that front has been mentioned.

South africa is suing israel at the icj alleging state responsibility for genocide, however that is different from personal responsibility, and different standards of evidence and procedures apply. Its also a totally separate court system.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#565

Post by jll29 »

nimbius wrote: post #488
bluGill wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming the court isn't a political thing that is trying to get him regardless of evidence. The court is at least partially political, and Netanyahu will tell you this is entirely political and he wouldn't get a fair trail.

political is..sorta true. the point of these international legal bodies was to maintain and enforce a world order dominated by western powers. it was not about promoting justice (albeit sometimes that happened.) the selective application of enforcement and investigation have reduced the ICC to little more than a tool of neocolonial rule. the rome statute itself contains provisions that limit its reach. article 98 pre…

I once had the honor to attend a lecture by a prosecutor of the ICC.

Out of all lawyers/attorneys/prosecutors/judges that I met in my life, that one was the one that I would judge to bet he most idealistic and justice motivated (admittedly based on my gut instinct); a very rare breed.

It's good that there are such institutions with a good purpose, staffed with good people. Bad faith actors - including war criminals - will of course claim agendas (other than bringing justice), deny jurisdiction etc. but it is a good starting point to have them. The next step is to strive to give these organizations enough "teeth" to execute.

The "individual bully" problem needs some addressing, a solution to that remains outstanding.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#567

Post by grumple »

zawaideh wrote: post #193
sekai wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Gaza Health Ministry is an unreliable source There is no reason to doubt their numbers other than Israel says so. All reputable sources have found their numbers to be historically accurate.

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#568

Post by dlubarov »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #534
vladgur wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> We will target all of Hamas's positions. We will turn Gaza into a deserted island. The fact, the Gaza part is a separate sentence is telling. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7/world-is-watching-f... > You have an opportunity to save Lebanon before it falls into the abyss of a long war that will lead to destruction and suffering like we see in Gaza. Is what he said to Lebanon, where he threatened to do simila…

[flagged]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#569

Post by FireBeyond »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #450
tsimionescu wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the GP intended to congratulate the Palestinians for their digged resilience in pursuing this, despite the extraordinary opposition they faced. I think they were using this language specifically to suggest how hard the fight was, not to imply that it was a bad thing.

You are correct. But given the normal position people take when it comes to Palestine, I don’t blame GP for misinterpreting! :)

Well, I apologize for the misreading, certainly!

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#570

Post by loceng »

bawolff wrote: post #564
loceng wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the only counterweight for a person accused of genocide who is claiming they haven't committed war crimes or genocide, while they call this action "antisemetic" - the only way to determine if they are being genuine in claim it is antisemitism or political-manipulation (demonization) tool is to go to court and see all of the evidence presented. Either 40,000+ people dead or seemingly nearly all Palestinian's civil…

> And the only counterweight for a person accused of genocide The ICC has not accused anyone of genocide. It does have juridsiction over personal criminal responsibility for gdnocide, but so far, nothing on that front has been mentioned. South africa is suing israel at the icj alleging state responsibility for genocide, however that is different from personal responsibility, and different standards of evidence and pr…

Straw man argument. I didn't make the claim the ICC accused the ICC of genocide, however Netanyahu is now at minimum now officially wanted for war crimes.

ICC and ICJ are different, yes.

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