Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal • Hacker News Board

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#71

Post by cs702 » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 3:26 PM UTC

illamint wrote: post #55

cs702 wrote: post #36

Alas, BMW buyers often cannot opt out of keyless entry, because for some models BMW includes it in popular bundled packages, such that it's impossible for the consumer to avoid buying it without losing other worthwhile features. This consumer-unfriendly bundling results in BMW buyers often facing what can only be described as ridiculous choices ("which one do I want: a rear-view camera that reduces the risk of accide…

It's not keyless entry, it's the electronic keys used for push-to-start (which is also an unavoidable option, but it's one I like).

illamint: the feature is sold as "comfort access keyless entry," and it allows the driver to start the engine without inserting the electronic key. (Without this feature, the default setup for BMWs is that the driver must insert the electronic key before starting the engine -- a form of two-step authentication that isn't susceptible to the attack described in the article.)

FWIW, I know about this firsthand because I bought a new BMW last year and I was adamant about not having the "keyless entry" feature -- for security reasons. The BMW salesperson acted like I was a bit crazy.

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#72

Post by vecinu » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 3:30 PM UTC

jrabone wrote: post #44

__alexs wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no evidence the OBD port was actually used in this attack. The programmer could have been directly connected to an easily accessible CAN connected component such as the wing mirrors.

There has been evidence in the UK that this is how the thieves are doing it (people finding their cars with the drivers window smashed and the OBD cover lying on the floor). See http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=670339 - at least one of the guys posted there is police.

Which gentleman is a police officer?

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#73

Post by gcb » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 3:34 PM UTC

Flag this.every car since the 80s has an odb port. Having access to it allow you to unlock/disarm alarm/start car.

The headline is obvious link bait suggesting the radio protocol is easily hackable remotely. Which is not the case

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#74

Post by EliRivers » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 3:41 PM UTC

jrabone wrote: post #22

__alexs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'd rather not have to pay $200 for a spare key thanks...

Um, it's a GBP 40K car; I don't care.

I appreciate that you like to participate on the internet by speaking out loud and typing what you hear yourself say; once you've done that, you can go back and remove the "um" from the start.

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#75

Post by tibbon » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 3:46 PM UTC

Cars aren't secure. Most things aren't. The main thing that stops a theft is putting it in a place that's harder to get to (again, nothing is secure) just so that no one sees it, or has the opportunity to steal it.

I'm at a coffee shop right now, and my BMW motorcycle is parked right outside the window. Me keeping an eye on it is better security than any electronics lock system (as I know I could hotwire this bike in 30 seconds, and surely a criminal could too).

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#76

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 3:47 PM UTC

bradleyland wrote: post #68

stcredzero wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) This is not a network attack, so the internet is largely irrelevant. Security protocols that can be used on two points on the Internet can also be used between two pieces of hardware, like a programmer/diagnostic tool and an embedded computer.

I don't disagree with that, but it's still irrelevant in the context of this particular attack, because there's no main-in-the-middle component required. Yes, you must secure the transport, and the same applies for even basic serial communications, but that's not what's happening here at all. This is an exploit of the implementation constraints at a legislate level. Engineers look at this problem and see the engineer…

> I don't disagree with that, but it's still irrelevant in the context of this particular attack, because there's no main-in-the-middle component required.

Non-sequitur. If you can interpose the man in the middle, then most protocols are broken.

> What are the chances that legislators understand the internet well enough to craft effective legislation? Not good, I'm afraid.

From what I've seen, the average level of security knowledge in the startup community is woefully inadequate -- with almost everybody believing they are above average.

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#77

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 3:57 PM UTC

jrabone wrote: post #23

CamperBob2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the alarm system is ultrasonic, I can envision breaking into the car by blasting several watts of power at the same frequency at the car. Loss of receiver dynamic range due to gain compression or transducer saturation == loss of ability to detect changes in the phase of the transmitted signal consistent with someone opening a door and climbing in. What in the world was wrong with plain old car keys -- especially w…

You might be over-thinking this. It's possible to disable the factory alarm motion sensor by double-pressing the lock button on the key fob. This is a feature for people (like me) who take their car on ferries, and who don't enjoy listening to a cacophony of car alarms while on the ferry (I appear to be in minority here, if recent trips were anything to go by) Apparently a fair few owners don't know this feature exis…

[deleted]

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#78

Post by CamperBob2 » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 3:58 PM UTC

bradleyland wrote: post #50

josteink wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Translated into not-evading-responsibility-esque: The fact that the communication protocol used is openly known, much like all internet communications, means that an attack is easy to craft. Somehow that is a solved problem with internet and all other open security architecture. Why isn't it solved on these cars? This sounds like either NIH combined with piss poor security engineering done in the name of looking fanc…

>Somehow that is a solved problem with internet and all other open security architecture. Why isn't it solved on these cars? >I'm sure some engineers objected that "this is fundamentally insecure!" but got turned down from someone doing the budgets. You're missing a couple of key points here: 1) This is not a network attack, so the internet is largely irrelevant. 2) This is similar to having an attacker sit down at t…

4) Nobody said they had to use the OBDII port for this.

4a) Nobody said that OBDII ports had to work while the alarm is armed.

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#79

Post by freehunter » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 4:00 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #34

I remember the good old days, where my key opened the doors of my friends car and his key could not open mine yet it would start my car. Where my Aunt drove her car to the mall, locked the doors, and when she came out could get in as she had the keys to her husbands car. Needless to say in both cases there were the same brand, within a year or so. You did not even need to have same major brand (Ford/Mercury were inte…

My roommate and I both have Toyota trucks. Mine is much more than a decade old, his is almost two decades old, and as a consequence there are parts that are starting to wear down. Like the ignition switch.

There have been many times I've called him up (or vice versa) and said "can you bring my truck to me?" Even though the keys are not compatible, that doesn't matter anymore. His could probably be started with a popsicle stick. Mine can be started with something slightly resembling a Toyota key. The only reason they haven't been stolen is a combination of the fact that they're not worth any money, they have nothing of value inside them, and they're manual transmission (so chances are a US thief wouldn't be able to get away in it).

Re: Keyless BMW cars prove to be very easy to steal

#80

Post by mikeryan » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 4:01 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #75

Cars aren't secure. Most things aren't. The main thing that stops a theft is putting it in a place that's harder to get to (again, nothing is secure) just so that no one sees it, or has the opportunity to steal it. I'm at a coffee shop right now, and my BMW motorcycle is parked right outside the window. Me keeping an eye on it is better security than any electronics lock system (as I know I could hotwire this bike in…

Heck my car got stolen once with a screwdriver. I'm sure it took all of 30 seconds.