The withering dream of a cheap American electric car • Hacker News Board

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#691

Post by r00fus » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 5:56 PM UTC

stouset wrote: post #626

poidos wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it yourself — their dwelling is the entire city. Those 400sqft are where they sleep and relax but most of their living probably happens outside. Different strokes and all that.

Same with a hotel. The hotel is where I spend most of my time unconscious. Other than a few select destinations, why would I spend a fortune at a place where I’ll mostly be asleep?

Honestly I tried cheaper hotels and motels and often times I simply didn't sleep well there - usually due to some noise as some college or high school kids were running up and down the hallway outside or were partying in the room next door.

YMMV.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#692

Post by kube-system » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 5:57 PM UTC

dogleash wrote: post #546

bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

> Americans won't buy cheap cars Not from a new car dealership, no. They'll buy cheap cars, but the mere act of driving a new car off the lot is a huge deprecation event in the life of the car. Why would price sensitive buyers go to the dealership?

In fact, most don't. 3/4 of car sales in the US are used cars. The vast majority of Americans are driving used cars. Only relatively well-to-do people buy new cars. It might seem counterintuitive, but the stock of cars on the road is rotated around a lot, and new cars are only a small fraction of them.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#693

Post by r00fus » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 6:04 PM UTC

DrillShopper wrote: post #627

jebarker wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taking one single family home solar does not provide a measurable environmental impact in aggregate. In order for large numbers of homes to go solar, individual homes need to go solar. Are you saying we just shouldn't bother with solar and EVs because not everyone is going to do it? May aswell just stop donating to charity too right? > Someone has to pay off that loan... I think the OP is probably paying for the lo…

> In order for large numbers of homes to go solar, individual homes need to go solar Or we could put that solar on the grid so everyone could benefit from it

CA is doing both but PG&E (and SDGE and SCE, etc) are screwing everyone over as they wasted decades without maintaining their lines properly and now charge through the roof on power distribution which they have a monopoly on.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#694

Post by kube-system » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 6:10 PM UTC

logotype wrote: post #652

FactKnower69 wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're an American wondering why you're forced to buy shitty overpriced Teslas instead of those $15k BYD Dolphins, here's Janet Yellen screeching about how unfair it is that China uses its labor force to manufacture consumer goods instead of creating millions of bullshit make-work financialization jobs like good liberal democracies https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/yellen-intends-warn-...

I would never, EVER, buy any BYD or any car manufactured in China. Support local brands who manufacture locally.

> Support local brands who manufacture locally.

There are none. The Model Y is the closest with 70% of it made in either the US or Canada (the law does not require them to break it down to US only...) Every other car available for sale in the US has more than 30% manufactured outside of the US or Canada. And the big 3 are some of the worst offenders for offshoring their manufacturing out of the US.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#695

Post by r00fus » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 6:11 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #136

matthewdgreen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of that market is being addressed by used EVs, which are getting much cheaper right now as they age out of new-car-buyers' households. https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/used/tesla

I wouldn't buy a used EV because the battery pack is that much closer to needing to be replaced, which effectively totals the vehicle.

Would you never buy a used ICE car because replacing the engine would effectively total the vehicle?

Batteries last a LONG time assuming the vehicle manufacturer has put proper heat and SoC management into the battery controller (ie, not a Nissan Leaf).

I thought my 7 year old Ford Focus EV would be half the range of its 110mi battery by now but it still posts near-perfect range (it's lost about 5%).

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#696

Post by nradov » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 6:21 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #694

logotype wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would never, EVER, buy any BYD or any car manufactured in China. Support local brands who manufacture locally.

> Support local brands who manufacture locally. There are none. The Model Y is the closest with 70% of it made in either the US or Canada (the law does not require them to break it down to US only...) Every other car available for sale in the US has more than 30% manufactured outside of the US or Canada. And the big 3 are some of the worst offenders for offshoring their manufacturing out of the US.

There are several vehicle models such as the Tesla Model 3 which have >70% North American parts content.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/part-583-american-automobile-labeling-...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#697

Post by kube-system » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 6:22 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #571

underlipton wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There'll often be a broad restriction of adornment of any kind outside of a strict list, and/or at the discretion of the HOA/property manager. Many don't allow window AC units. There's a general air of paranoia about anything that could potentially bring down perceived property values, or that might otherwise project a sense that the neighborhood is anything other than a Flanderization of affluence. (There's also a e…

Ah, I see. For the whole "land of the free" and "free market" thing, the US seems very not that ?

Well, the US is a strong federal state, so it depends on the level of government. At the national level, the US government is relatively hands-off compared to other places. At the local level, it depends on your local politics. In urban areas, you might have an HOA telling you whether or not you can have an AC unit. In rural areas there's almost certainly no HOA, and potentially not even a local municipal government at all, and could quite often be legal to put up a gun range in your back yard.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#698

Post by travisb » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 6:27 PM UTC

short_sells_poo wrote: post #384

some_random wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. There are other esoteric benefits of ICE but that's the one the vast majority of people are hung up on and that will likely not be fixed anytime soon.

> Even if charging infrastructure was perfect EVs still require a significant amount of time to charge compared to refueling an ICE vehicle. That's just down to charging infrastructure no? Sure, there are physical limits to how much electricity one can move in a given time, but we are nowhere at those physical limits. So it's just down to infrastructure in the end. If there was infrastructure to quickly and reliably…

Your average, rather small, gasoline pump 'charges' an ICE at an average speed around 4000 KW, effectively 1200 KW after accounting for moderate efficiency -- hybrids will get better. Good EV charging today is a peak around 300 KW with a much lower average.

Honestly, _averaging_ 300 KW is probably within a factor of 2 of the highest we'll do for light vehicles given economic (how much electric distribution infrastructure can an 8-32 stall charging station have?) and practical (how heavy and stiff can the charging cable be?) limits.

It's unlikely EV charging speed will ever match existing ICEs. Relatively long recharge times are an intrinsic trade-off of BEV technology which needs to be engineered around, mostly by having enormous and heavy batteries.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#699

Post by nradov » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 6:27 PM UTC

sojournerc wrote: post #653

jgalt212 wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> uses the 92 octane fuel There's no evidence that higher octane fuel is required or leads to performance gains in excess of the cost bump.

High compression engines require high octane to avoid knock. It's not about performance. An engine with a turbo or super charger will always need higher octane fuel.

Not all forced induction engines always need higher octane fuel. A lot of the newer turbo engines in cheaper vehicles such as Subarus are specifically rated for 87 octane gasoline. They don't knock.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#700

Post by throwawaymaths » Tue, Nov 19, 2024, 6:28 PM UTC

dangus wrote: post #636

throwawaymaths wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hated the prius too, when it first came out. But then Leonardo DiCaprio bought a Gen2 and pretty soon everyone wanted one. This is particularly funny because Honda built the insight first which looked crazy and nobody bought it, then Toyota built the Gen1 which looked like a normal car, then pivoted. Then Honda's Insight2 copied the New Prius vibe and this car ALSO failed, poor honda. Looking unlike anything o…

Something you have to understand is that the Aptera is bound to fail because it has two doors, two seats. That's why the Honda Insight failed. The car didn't look crazy, it looked like a Civic. It didn't sell because was a tiny two-seater. Look at the top 25 selling vehicles in America. Not one is lacking four door, 4+ passengers. The ceiling for two door vehicles is the Ford Mustang. Ford sells about 50,000 of them,…

So, I've met a lot of aptera investors and reservation holders and, (modulo selection bias, ofc), your characterization of them is incorrect. By far most of them are considering keeping a utility car and using aptera as a daily driver for work. It's not so expensive that that is crazy thing to do or want.

Anyways, time will tell which of us is correct.