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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#631

Post by afavour »

llm_trw wrote: post #613
JeremyNT wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means t…

The difference is that new cars are safe cars. Old cars are death traps. If you value your life you will be buying the new shiny every 5 years or less.

While it’s certainly true that old cars are death traps I’d live to see a source showing that car safety is increasing at notable levels every five years. Federal safety standards haven’t.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#632

Post by afavour »

itsoktocry wrote: post #600
bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

City dwellers will spend $2500 a month for 400 sq feet of rented living space and laugh at people paying $50k for a car.

I don’t think that’s a good comparison. If you’re buying a car primarily for commuting a $10k car is going to achieve that purpose just as well as a $50k car. But $2500 on a small apartment in a city gives a very different lifestyle than one in a big house in the suburbs. I’m not going to make a value judgement either way there but there is a clear difference in functional result.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#633

Post by edaemon »

wenc wrote: post #407
edaemon wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Friction braking is rarely needed to make a full stop. My EV only applies blended braking in specific conditions (cold temps, steep hills, and full battery) and I essentially never touch the brake pedal.

You may not touch the brake pedal but the brake pads are still being used to make a complete stop (this is how regen braking systems work, at low speeds regen is not effective so brake pads are used for the last few feet). You’ll use wear out your brake pads way less, but they are still used very frequently (every time you make a complete stop in fact).

My mistake, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that regen braking on its own wasn't strong enough to slow the vehicle down. You're right that friction brakes are applied for the last little bit to come to a complete stop and hold.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#634

Post by dangus »

snakeyjake wrote: post #311

There are inexpensive EVs in the US. A local dealer has new Nissan Leafs available for $24.5k (after rebates) all day, every day. There are also inexpensive cars. A local dealer has new Mitsubishi Mirage Hatchbacks available for $17k all day, every day. People don't want them. They're not being tricked, cajoled, strong-armed, forced, pressured, misguided, or hoodwinked. American consumers WANT and CAN AFFORD gigantic…

Here's the thing: in a market where almost all the new car buyers are affluent and can afford "wealthy country luxury," it's no wonder that small, economic penalty boxes like the Chevy Spark and Ford Fiesta get discontinued left and right when you think about how depreciation and the used market works.

I think you'd have to be batshit insane to buy a brand new Mitsubishi Mirage for $17k when the used market is flooded with much better cars that are barely used for the same price.

You can get a 2021 Hyundai Sonata with under 30,000 miles for that kind of money. Basically, a brand new car, one that's far larger, more refined, faster, more features, etc.

Those economy boxes make a lot of sense in countries where buying something higher end is less attainable. But in a world where someone leases a $40,000 car for 3 years, dumps it back to the dealership, a $20,000 new car can't compete with an originally-$40,000 3-year-old car with 30,000 miles.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#635

Post by fire_lake »

bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

Madness. And people poke fun at annual phone upgraders. The big fancy car habit is far worse.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#636

Post by dangus »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #533
underseacables wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Aptera! I just don't think it's ever going to take off. There's just not enough investment and demand. It looks ridiculous but it's an awesome concept of aerodynamics.

People hated the prius too, when it first came out. But then Leonardo DiCaprio bought a Gen2 and pretty soon everyone wanted one. This is particularly funny because Honda built the insight first which looked crazy and nobody bought it, then Toyota built the Gen1 which looked like a normal car, then pivoted. Then Honda's Insight2 copied the New Prius vibe and this car ALSO failed, poor honda. Looking unlike anything o…

Something you have to understand is that the Aptera is bound to fail because it has two doors, two seats.

That's why the Honda Insight failed. The car didn't look crazy, it looked like a Civic. It didn't sell because was a tiny two-seater.

Look at the top 25 selling vehicles in America. Not one is lacking four door, 4+ passengers.

The ceiling for two door vehicles is the Ford Mustang. Ford sells about 50,000 of them, it's the top selling two door vehicle.

If Aptera could sell 10% of that in a year it would be essentially a miracle.

I also think the kind of demographic that is so eco-concious and anti-automotive status quo that they would consider something like an Aptera are already switching to cycling. I see that buyer as someone like City Nerd on YouTube, who at this point isn't looking for a better and more efficient car, they're looking to live car-free in a lively walkable/bikable urban neighborhood. The kind of person who wants to buy an Aptera is probably already halfway done packing to move to Copenhagen.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#637

Post by m463 »

JeremyNT wrote: post #561
bluGill wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some Americans. The average car in the US is 12 years old. I just checked my local craigslist, most cars of that age are under 10k, and almost none are more than 20k. Since that is average we can assume cars of that age will run (with maintenance) for another decade and so shouldn't be very expensive. Of course at that age almost nothing is electric.

I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means t…

I think of the last generation of pro-level film cameras.

They were expensive, but well designed and durable, yet ... who wants to pay in time and money to develop film every 36 pictures?

I think some really good gas cars only make sense if you use them infrequently to haul heavy things or lots of passengers.

Otherwise it is getting cheaper to run an EV - you might even charge it with electricity you capture yourself.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#638

Post by washadjeffmad »

asciimov wrote: post #329
GratiaTerra wrote: post #248

I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

Look at what it's solving for. Low income households are not the largest consumers of energy. They may own less efficient appliances, but there are other programs for that, like free home sealing and heat pump installation.

One group has insufficiencies that need to be solved, the other, excesses. Lessening dependence on the grid for the ones for whom cost is not a barrier lowers costs for everyone.

Now, having some sort of solar community energy bank would eventually be novel, akin to the replaceable battery charge stations for electric scooters in the Pacific Islands. Take your high density 12VDC canisters up, slot them into the locking wells, and get a text when they're full. Dock them onto your appliance circuit when you're home, and enjoy grid-free power for your home or vehicle.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#639

Post by washadjeffmad »

jebarker wrote: post #484
tuatoru wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's plenty of wealthy people that can afford to go solar ... subsidies are a useful tool to get them to take the plunge. So you are in favour of taking taxes from the poor to give to the rich. Good to know. Wealthy people's impact disproportionately comes from plane travel. That is highly polluting but nothing is being done about that.

Wealthy people pay much more in taxes than poor people. One use of taxes I am in favor of is "nudges" to achieve desirable outcomes for all. This is an example of that. Bringing up plane travel is "whataboutism".

True, but not universally. In cities, lower income people living in older buildings are a significantly larger source of tax revenue than corporate parks or the wealthy communities they subsidize. I spend less in sales tax shopping at Costco than someone who eats every meal from a corner store and overpays for singles of everything.

I don't even know what a soda or single roll of toilet tissue costs, but I'd probably be horrified by it because I can afford not to spend money.

The government gets my money on occasion, but they have a chunk of the nation on a subscription plan.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#640

Post by Ekaros »

tomatotomato37 wrote: post #608
wannacboatmovie wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> coworker of mine just spent $100k on a regular old pickup truck > It gets like 11 mpg and uses the 92 octane fuel. I understand hating on pickup trucks is an easy way to farm upvotes on HN, but there is no 'regular pickup truck' in existence that gets 11 mpg. The closest that comes to that is the F-150 Raptor with turbocharged V8 which is a preposterous performance vehicle with a racing engine. It is a luxury item.…

My guess would be the difference in perception comes from the fact sport cars tend to be smaller and sit lower, which makes pedestrians and motorist feel safer and less intimidated around them. In addition their general rarity means most people still view them as novelties rather than something to actually take a side on. That being said though it is 100% true performance engines are the absolute worst in terms of ec…

Also I tend to think that they are often rather expensive and not as robust. So people who drive them do not want to damage. As repairs tend to be expensive too. So in general they avoid accidents, unless they are going to speed off the road...
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