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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#511

Post by bluGill »

harpiaharpyja wrote: post #234
lumost wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PHEV means two drive trains, more parts and in turn more weight. Do you really want a plugin car that loses its charge in 30 minutes?

Is it two drive trains? I thought ideally PHEV would be like diesel-electric with electric motors supplying traction and a gas power plant supplying power.

Gears are more efficient (assuming you are not stupid in design) than an electric generator and motor. We cannot make gears that will do the job for a train - they wouldn't fit between the wheels while also doing the needed 90 degree turn to the engine. Once in a while someone makes such a car, but it is generally better to use a transmission.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#512

Post by plagiarist »

wannacboatmovie wrote: post #477
bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

> coworker of mine just spent $100k on a regular old pickup truck > It gets like 11 mpg and uses the 92 octane fuel. I understand hating on pickup trucks is an easy way to farm upvotes on HN, but there is no 'regular pickup truck' in existence that gets 11 mpg. The closest that comes to that is the F-150 Raptor with turbocharged V8 which is a preposterous performance vehicle with a racing engine. It is a luxury item.…

Lamborghini drivers obeying the traffic rules aren't creating a hazard.

Aftermarket headlights blazing directly into the eyes of oncoming drivers are creating a hazard. As is the fact that it takes up a lot of road space and has poor visibility for small objects in front of the hood.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#513

Post by ricardobeat »

rootusrootus wrote: post #243
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

The current average monthly salary in China is $3000-$4000 US dollars. This is not about cheap labour anymore but simple economies of scale.

The whole talk about subsidies is pure smoke screen. US automakers have received a lot more subsidies than their Chinese counterparts. The top chinese firm receiving government subsidies, CATL, got ~$500M USD last year. BYD is said to have received $3.5 billion in total in its lifetime. In the meantime, the US government offered $12B just last year for automakers to start making more EVs, and Ford is reported to have received a total of $33B in loans, bailouts and tax rebates.

In any case, if you could put down $3.5B and get a BYD out, everyone would be doing it, reality is a bit more complex than that.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#514

Post by ben_w »

underlipton wrote: post #472
ben_w wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*Waves from Germany* We have self-install balcony PV systems starting at a few hundred euros: https://www.obi.de/p/8073827/absaar-flexibles-balkonkraftwer... I've been to the US a few times, seen AC hanging out of the windows all over the place. If you can do that, and Germany can do this, why can't you also do this? Now sure, it won't cover 100% of demand, but it will help many of the poorest.

HOA and lease restrictions. Also depends on what exposures you have. One place I lived was exclusively western, the other eastern.

Rhetorically: Do HOA/lease rules that forbid PV not also prohibit AC dangling out the window?

If they allow one and prohibit the other, can they not be changed to allow something else that also dangles from the window?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#515

Post by jerlam »

wannacboatmovie wrote: post #477
bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

> coworker of mine just spent $100k on a regular old pickup truck > It gets like 11 mpg and uses the 92 octane fuel. I understand hating on pickup trucks is an easy way to farm upvotes on HN, but there is no 'regular pickup truck' in existence that gets 11 mpg. The closest that comes to that is the F-150 Raptor with turbocharged V8 which is a preposterous performance vehicle with a racing engine. It is a luxury item.…

The external effects of large pickup trucks are drastically more than that of a small sports car, in ways that are more immediate than climate change.

Large pickup trucks take up a lot more space on the road and parking lots, are harder to see around, and when they get into accidents they cause a lot more damage and injuries to people both in and out of cars. There is a very different visceral response to a large pickup truck tailgating you with its driver perched above you, than a Lambo or 911 doing the same.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#516

Post by epistasis »

yowzadave wrote: post #489
epistasis wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much bett…

Isn't TFA about how the technology is not resulting in lowered costs for end users? What are you suggesting would change the dynamic described in the article?

There's two very very different things under discussion here,

1) TFA, with manufacturers using their limited production capacity to target the highest margin customers, the ones that overpay the most.

2) green energy subsidies, in the comment I'm replying to.

In the first case, the price insensitive customers are the ones paying for a build out of capacity, and taking on greater risk while doing it.

But in the comment that I'm replying to, the poster was commenting on "benefits" which is presumably the lower cost of electricity, and those with the least also have the greatest need for lower costs. Presumably this is about residential solar/storage, or at least I interpreted it to be. Lower costs in solar are not having much of an impact at the moment due to the high cost of the regulatory structure that we use in the US; Australia has a far far far lower solar installation cost, And for green energy subsidies on utility solar/storage, the question gets even more complicated because falling electricity generation costs are not something that the utility wants to pass on, since most in the US are regulated monopolies and have no incentive to ever lower prices.

In any case, the existence of the subsidy is not the core problem, it's the mismatch between decision makers and beneficiaries.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#517

Post by epistasis »

plandis wrote: post #478
epistasis wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much bett…

It’s literally a government handout for people wealthy enough to buy more expensive cars and solar. That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH.

That money is spent to fund the capital expenditures and the on-the-production-line R&D that drives down costs.

That money that subsidizes purchases of more expensive products also incentivizes all those factories, the things that make them cheaper in the future.

> That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH

If you can convert this vague statement into a policy with real impacts, there would be tons of people that would love to hear it. Otherwise, it's just wishing the world were different, without a path to completion.

Should we all have free energy? Of course! But how do we do it. I'm all ears and hope that you have come up with a defensible policy. (Though ideally you should have shared it 4 years ago, because it's going to be a long time before we have another shot at setting policy, and everybody was begging for ideas like yours back then.)

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#518

Post by latentcall »

skybrian wrote: post #430
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

If you want something truly cheap, buying a new car doesn’t make a lot of sense. Used cars are a better deal.

Used cars are not that much of a bargain. I’ve been looking and asking 20k for a car with 100k plus miles is insanity.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#520

Post by ben_w »

plandis wrote: post #478
epistasis wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much bett…

It’s literally a government handout for people wealthy enough to buy more expensive cars and solar. That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH.

> That money should have been spent to fund R&D/capital expenditures to make cheaper electric vehicles and solar cells for everyone, TBH.

It kinda was, it's just that it was spend in China and the US government got the money back by putting tariffs on the imports.

The tariffs are paid by the importer, whose customers also gets a government subsidy paid for by the tariffs that the electorate is told are paid by the exporter, so they get to feel like they're getting a good deal and the voters get to feel patriotic, and why isn't my MSCI China investment doing better…

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