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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#481

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

Zelphyr wrote: post #381
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

I don't remember the source so, someone please correct me if I'm wrong but, I read that no EV battery can be made for less than $50K. So, either BYD is cutting some serious corners (possibly) or they are being heavily subsidized (probably). If either are true, I can see how that would be damaging to us.

> I don't remember the source so, someone please correct me if I'm wrong but, I read that no EV battery can be made for less than $50K.

Absolute hogwash.

The only way for this to be true is if you amortize the cost of R&D and factory building over a small number of batteries and include it in the manufacturing cost, and I think it's incredibly misleading to include the cost of R&D into the cost of a battery, simply for the fact that you can make wild claims by just including it.

So...for an incumbent manufacturer that's putting very little effort into actually selling EVs, it might be true that it's costing them $50K per battery if you include the cost of setting up the manufacturing. But for someone like Tesla, who has literally sold millions of cars, even if you include that cost, it's closer to $10K.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#482

Post by mschuster91 »

Kudos wrote: post #186
mschuster91 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more than enough to cover the average worker's commute, especially as most of the time is spent stuck in traffic.

That's not true, it's barely enough to get the average worker to their job https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...

Travel time != travel distance. When you're stuck in traffic, an electric or hybrid car will not consume any energy except for fans/heating/AC. An ICE-only car will have to keep its engine running.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#483

Post by lenerdenator »

Cumpiler69 wrote: post #222
lenerdenator wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. There's a bunch of free riders in the form of shareholders artificially driving up the price of goods.

>There's a bunch of free riders in the form of shareholders artificially driving up the price of goods. Isn't this a natural consequence of capitalism in entrenched industries?

Why yes. Yes it is.

Which is why you don't put shareholders first in line for revenues.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#484

Post by jebarker »

tuatoru wrote: post #435
jebarker wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need both. There's plenty of wealthy people that can afford to go solar and could arguably have a bigger environmental impact if they did since they often also have large homes, big cars etc. If they don't feel strongly about doing it for altruistic reasons then subsidies are a useful tool to get them to take the plunge. Without subsidies there's really no economic argument for them to do it since the break even t…

> There's plenty of wealthy people that can afford to go solar ... subsidies are a useful tool to get them to take the plunge. So you are in favour of taking taxes from the poor to give to the rich. Good to know. Wealthy people's impact disproportionately comes from plane travel. That is highly polluting but nothing is being done about that.

Wealthy people pay much more in taxes than poor people. One use of taxes I am in favor of is "nudges" to achieve desirable outcomes for all. This is an example of that.

Bringing up plane travel is "whataboutism".

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#485

Post by barbazoo »

sgerenser wrote: post #170
f1refly wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because PHEV are a really dumb idea? You're lugging around two complete powertrains the whole time, a massive waste of energy!

PHEVs generally weigh much less than a full EV with equivalent range. Doesn’t seem very wasteful to me.

ICE weigh much much less than an EV with equivalent range. It matters what you're optimizing for. Most people seem to optimize cost, many for range and some for GHG emissions. Based on which camp you're in, your judgment of of something being wasteful will be different.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#486

Post by jillesvangurp »

Pxtl wrote: post #408
jillesvangurp wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of demand is the conventional explanation. But I think it is a bit of lazy and misleading one. I think there's plenty of demand for cheap EVs. But there's a problem with US manufacturing not being able to deliver those. Supply chains aren't there. Manufacturing capability and capacity isn't there. Etc. And of course the EV market is still actually growing in the US. It's just that companies like Tesla, Kia/Hyund…

> I think there's plenty of demand for cheap EVs. But there's a problem with US manufacturing not being able to deliver those. How much of that has to do with the USA's extreme needs for range and size? There are places I'd be happy to drive a subcompact with a 300km range (eg. the Byd Dolphin), but most of the USA that kind of vehicle wouldn't be safe or practical. That's an awful lot of expensive battery-mass the B…

> How much of that has to do with the USA's extreme needs for range and size?

Very little as far as I can see; this is a simple lack of competition. Most of the really long range vehicles are super premium products that are sold in relatively low numbers to people who can afford them rather than to people that need that kind of range (or rather thing that they do, it is a bit irrational in many cases).

Most US manufacturers simply compensate their lack of efficiency with more battery and cost. It allows them to keep up with e.g. Tesla and Kia in terms of range. So, they'll put in 85kwh instead of 65kwh. Or even more.

Same range but at a higher cost. But of course the flip-side is that Tesla can just effortlessly undercut their pricing whenever they are having surpluses. They sell the same cars for much less abroad.

It's also telling that Tesla has sold more Cybertrucks last quarter than all other EV trucks combined. It's not a very practical truck. But it looks cool. They've barely even started to ramp up production and they are already running circles around their competitors. No sign of a lack of demand there. Lots of signs of an outclassed competition that is simply not able to keep up.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#487

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

nunez wrote: post #395
DaveExeter wrote: post #105

If we wanted a cheap American electric car, the way to do it would be to allow Chinese EV manufacturers to sell to the American public! Of course, that is not allowed, because it would benefit the American people and hurt the American car cartel.

No. They will flood the market with government-subsidized EVs built in zero-workers-rights environments that will absolutely destroy the American auto industry. It will benefit American people in the short term but absolutely harm our country long-term.

Perhaps true, but how is this any different to other Chinese products sold at Walmart ?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#488

Post by warner25 »

solardev wrote: post #268
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Half of America doesn't want to support the incoming administration either, and Musk has decided to closely and personally align himself with it. I wonder if that will affect Tesla sales.

I recently saw a bumper sticker on a Tesla that said "We bought it before we knew how awful he was." Because of Musk, my wife and I will never buy a Tesla even if they do release a basic, low-cost model here in the US to compete with Japanese and Korean economy cars.

On the other hand, as the other comment said about him "tricking Republicans," I think he's also gained a new segment of buyers with his political play, so this might be a wash.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#489

Post by yowzadave »

epistasis wrote: post #425
asciimov wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's too bad that the only people benefiting from all green power subsidies are the people that least need them. We should be investing solar in lower income communities, as those people could really use cheaper utilities, and any saving they get would immediately go back into their communities.

That's an odd way of looking at it. Those who are most able to pay for it are those who are paying for the highest initial costs, lowering the costs for everyone else by improvements in the technology, and making it easier for others to adopt later. Early adopters take lots of risk on things not working out well, and learning what things can go wrong and how to fix them (at additional expense, too.) This is much bett…

Isn't TFA about how the technology is not resulting in lowered costs for end users? What are you suggesting would change the dynamic described in the article?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#490

Post by danielcampos93 »

wannacboatmovie wrote: post #477
bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

> coworker of mine just spent $100k on a regular old pickup truck > It gets like 11 mpg and uses the 92 octane fuel. I understand hating on pickup trucks is an easy way to farm upvotes on HN, but there is no 'regular pickup truck' in existence that gets 11 mpg. The closest that comes to that is the F-150 Raptor with turbocharged V8 which is a preposterous performance vehicle with a racing engine. It is a luxury item.…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecnS1Ygf0o0 I've been waiting for the chance to use this
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