Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 780 posts

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#311

Post by snakeyjake »

There are inexpensive EVs in the US. A local dealer has new Nissan Leafs available for $24.5k (after rebates) all day, every day.

There are also inexpensive cars. A local dealer has new Mitsubishi Mirage Hatchbacks available for $17k all day, every day.

People don't want them.

They're not being tricked, cajoled, strong-armed, forced, pressured, misguided, or hoodwinked.

American consumers WANT and CAN AFFORD gigantic $65k SUVs with heated and cooled seats and wifi and huge screens that take up the entire dashboard.

"Oh but they're prioritizing higher-marg..." yeah no shit Sherlock literally all a consumer has to do is not buy one of those.

But Toyota can slap a limited edition retro paint job on an SUV, mark it up $5k and the dealer can mark it up $10k and people will walk past the cheap cars to sign up for a waiting list to get a chance to earn an opportunity to put down a non-refundable deposit to maybe, potentially, pay $75k for an middling SUV with a limited edition retro paint job.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#312

Post by ComSubVie »

bloomingeek wrote: post #262
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Absolutely! The biggest problem is the average American allows themselves to be duped and challenged by advertising. New tech in cars is great, but spending $40K and up is stupid. I've said it before: my $27K base model Ram truck will go from point A to point B just as well as a $70K(!) model. Is it just as shiny? No, but the money I didn't spend on all that shine won't be wasted on depreciation. My credit union rece…

And American prices are already insanely low. If I want to buy a RAM in Austria for $30k I get a used car with 150.000km. If I want a new one it's (much) over $100k.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#314

Post by MetaWhirledPeas »

torginus wrote: post #290
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Un-American or not, those 10k BYDs reflect Chinese supply chains, labor prices, and market subsidies and cars built to different regulations - turns out if they play the game like other manufacturers do, BYDs aren't actually that much cheaper to make.

Labor prices and subsidies might be "cheating" but why would we count supply chain against them?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#315

Post by hansvm »

torginus wrote: post #265
bartvk wrote: post #2

https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all,…

I honestly don't get it - the median income in the US is like $35k - assuming people don't want to drive vehicles older than a decade, do people really spend a sixth of their total income on cars? In Europe the numbers are even worse. I'm fairly convinced only rich people and businesses buy new cars

> do people really spend a sixth of their total income on cars

Yes. It's a huge expense for a lot of Americans. Either the primary expense, or just behind housing.

> assuming people don't want to drive vehicles older than a decade

That's not a great assumption, especially if you're looking at people with less money. The normal lifespan of a car is 15-25yrs, and _somebody_ is driving those cars.

As you suspect though, the flow of new vehicles largely goes into wealthier people (average incomes in the $100k range), and after 6-10yrs the used cars trickle down to everyone else and live ~20yrs in total. There exist a number of exceptions (e.g., people getting a new car for reliability and not realizing that you could replace the engine and transmission three times over for the extra premium they're paying -- trying to do the right thing and make a fiscally responsible decision but accidentally doing something more expensive), but those aren't the norm.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#316

Post by engineer_22 »

DaveExeter wrote: post #231
renewedrebecca wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's also the 4.3 million US autoworkers who'd ultimately be the ones to get shafted. I don't think we can keep killing off entire industries and expect it to work out in the long run. At some point, what's left? WalMart?

Congrats! You discovered the Broken Window Fallacy. There are 300 million Americans. Why should ~1% get to hold the remaining 99% hostage?

My brother in christ, that is not the Broken Window Fallacy

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#317

Post by glial »

rootusrootus wrote: post #243
latentcall wrote: post #227

I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

I exclusively buy Toyotas because they are cheaper to maintain than American cars. Is your argument that I shouldn't have access to Japanese cars either?

I understand the desire to have a strategic reserve of manufacturing capacity. However, the US also subsidizes the US auto industry heavily by e.g. bailing out GM and Chrysler. It frustrates me that US car manufacturers continue to make exclusively heavy, low-efficiency vehicles. Give me something inexpensive, safe, efficient, reliable, and I'll buy it.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#318

Post by rconti »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #283
rconti wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My aunt and uncle have a couple of Teslas (at different homes, I think). We have one as well. They're looking at replacing one with another EV, so she was probing me for options, and then also said "I can't help but notice your recent vehicle purchases have not been EVs. Hmm.." I don't get it. We already have an EV. Why would I buy more EVs? The one that gets commuted in every day is already in our driveway. It alrea…

I hear you on the lack of diversification in models available. I’d really love to see an EV that’s in line with the virtues of the Honda Fit, Honda Element, and Toyota Matrix — not sexy or fancy, but cheap, insanely practical little “everything cars” that can take on anything you throw at them with tons of cargo space, fold flat seating, stock roof rack, etc — cars that are made for doing things instead of impressing…

I do think that the i3 is the one that fits best here. But being an all carbon fiber structure, being 2-10 years old, being a BMW, I understand there are a lot of strikes against it here when people think "cheap small economical car with a lot of space inside".

It's such a shame Honda won't sell the e here. I'm not going to say "I'd buy one in a second" because I'm not paying new car prices for one, but I wouldn't have bought a Fit new either. And yet, people bought the Fit new. And I'd happily buy a used Fit, it was actually on my runabout shopping list as well. (Fit with a manual trans).

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#319

Post by happyopossum »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #93

the only manufacturer that does this right is Aptera, the rest is a bunch of gimmicks / subsidy fraud that doesn't solve any actual problem with cars

What exactly does Aptera 'do right'? and what is it 'manufacturing'? They've been pitching the same tiny, unsafe, and impractical car for ~20 years now...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#320

Post by InDubioProRubio »

glial wrote: post #317
rootusrootus wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protecting local manufacturers from cheap offshore labor is rational, especially if the offshore products are being subsidized specifically to undermine incumbents and put them out of business. I get that individual consumers want the cheapest trinket they can find, but the gov't has to be more strategic. And every country does this, including the one that would be the source of these trinkets.

I exclusively buy Toyotas because they are cheaper to maintain than American cars. Is your argument that I shouldn't have access to Japanese cars either? I understand the desire to have a strategic reserve of manufacturing capacity. However, the US also subsidizes the US auto industry heavily by e.g. bailing out GM and Chrysler. It frustrates me that US car manufacturers continue to make exclusively heavy, low-effici…

The protectionism there deformed the product and thus, the limited offerings are a result of the inability to compete in these segments.
Post reply on HN