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A Dust Over India

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111–120 of 325 posts

Re: A Dust Over India

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the US government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/world/asia/18iht-letter18.... http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2091100,00.htm... People are holding hunger strikes to stand up against the corruption. When was the last time that happened in the US? You are rationalizing away al…

My comparison with the US was not intended to indicate complacency about the status quo. Your comment about hunger strikes underscores my point. It is completely inappropriate for any citizen of the modern US to express any indignation about the democratic process going on in another country. In the US we are given a standard explanation about other countries: Women are mistreated there, children and the poor are vic…

I think the more useful distinction between your positions is one of moral relativism vs moral absolutism, rather than neoconservatism vs (any other -ism).

Re: A Dust Over India

#112
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been explained to me that it is common for many indians to justify another person’s plight by believing that a condition of suffering is that person’s ‘karmic destiny.’ Therefore it would be ‘bad karma’ to help such a person.

Well, that perception, if it has been presented to you, is false. In fact, in India, whenever someone is discouraged to help someone out, the most popular argument is "Why bother? It's not your problem!" or "It'll be more trouble than it's worth" - just like anywhere else in the world.

Justifying someone's misery as 'bad karma' was told to me by Eileen Weintraub, the founder of http://www.helpanimalsindia.org. She tries to teach local indian communities how to organize local community animal shelters... which helps with the cut down as animal dung littering the streets, among other things.

Re: A Dust Over India

#113
I grew up in one of the biggest cities in India. If I was as good with words, this is exactly what I would write. Or maybe I wouldn't. The problem in discussing these issues with most Indians is that they quickly become defensive. Instead of acknowledging the facts (which is the fist step to finding a solution), the typical response you would receive is, "even in US there is poverty/crime/corruption... you are being hypocritical and should fuck off". I'm sure we will see a lot of it in this thread.

Re: A Dust Over India

#114

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to. Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization. Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of th…

"Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the US government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/world/asia/18iht-letter18.... http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2091100,00.htm... People are holding hunger strikes to stand up against the corruption. When was the last time that happened in the US? You are rationalizing away al…

> When was the last time that happened in the US?

1960's.

No hunger strikes AFAIK, the 99% occupiers are our cultural equiv.

Re: A Dust Over India

#115
Yes - the most horrendous thing about India is take-your-breath-away poverty. Kid are dying of hunger poverty.

That is the only thing which I really really don't like about India. It just seems wrong - very very wrong. Especially because it seems like there is enough money around to help these people.

All other things are ok and you can see in other countries - traffic is terrible, corruption, trash, ethnic violence, etc.

Re: A Dust Over India

#116
post #96

The problem he outlines about India are real and are serious ones. But the article is a shallow one and the author makes grand sweeps of imagination to make some crass generalizations. Consider a few of these: Indian culture itself is quite disorienting. The people can be incredibly warm and hospitable, or cold and rude depending on the context and how they know you. The conclusion I eventually came to is that if the…

"Is this a specific Indian behavior ? You can find sycophants in any part of the world. It is not that Indian culture is wired to sycophancy."

The problem is when majority of the population demonstrates this behavior. And with personal experience, I found this to be very true as well. I'm not saying this is scientific observation, just my personal, which matches with the author's.

Re: A Dust Over India

#117

Reading this article reminds me a story from "The Great Indian Novel" by Shashi Tharoor that explains the present state of Indians - "A man, ... a symbol, shall we say, of people of India -- is pursued by a tiger. He runs fast, but panting heart tells him he cannot run much longer. He sees a tree. Relief! He accelerates and gets to it in one last despairing stride. He climbs the tree. The tiger snarls below him, but…

"No matter how desperate the situation, Indians will always find a way to adjust, to live with it".

Exactly. And this is NOT a good thing. Instead a putting up with all this they should be fighting back. That would be a good thing.

Re: A Dust Over India

#118
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What nonsense - he's constantly referring to his own cultural biases, including finishing on exactly that.

Can you please point out to me where, exactly, he finishes on an acknowledgement of his own biases? His analysis is based on a 3-week excursion around various parts of the country, with little to no effort to understand any historical context for what he critiques. How about even a cursory talk about the historical context? Colonialism, the politics of development, the political economy of tourism, anything for that…

The reference to shutting out the congitive dissonance with his sunglasses and ipod is a tacit statement recognising that he is not of this place. If you don't see that in his writing, there's a lot in that essay you will have missed. A much clearer example of reporting on his own biases is when he reports on the email from his mother.

How can there be no single sentence for India, and then GIVE A SINGLE SENTENCE FOR INDIA?

Oh, for fuck's sake. You're choosing to be offended. He didn't give a single sentence, he wrote a four thousand word essay on it. An essay in which he covers a lot of variations in the parts of the culture he saw.

Really, you're choosing to be offended. Why should he report on the colonialism of India in an essay about his personal experiences; why is the essay bereft of value because of that? And despite your claims that he doesn't talk about the political economy of tourism, he does do that in the essay. He talks of the spiritual tourism, and his experiences and opinions of it.

Yeah, it's a fucking mess for a well-off Internet blogger.

And traveller to 40 countries, so a fair bit more experienced in other cultures than most. You're committing exactly the same sins of omission as you're accusing him of making, in order to reframe your argument so that it benefits you.

Re: A Dust Over India

#119
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, keep in mind that India was fairly rich till before the colonisation. From wikipedia[1], according to the Indian Prime Minister: "There is no doubt that our grievances against the British Empire had a sound basis. As the painstaking statistical work of the Cambridge historian Angus Maddison has shown, India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6% in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3% at that tim…

This mostly has to do with the gap introduced by the Industrial Revolution the second half of the 19th century. If you follow the rise of Germany leading up to World War I, you will notice that the country was steadily becoming richer as industrial machinery was introduced from Britain (where most of the early inventions took place). Something similar occurred in the United States as well. India, on the other hand, i…

Even during the french revolution, the largest manufacturing districts in the world were still the Yangzi Delta and Bengal.India alone produced one quarter of the world manufactures.

"It is very likely that, in the middle of the eighteenth century, the average standard of living in Europe was a little bit lower than that of the rest of the world" - Bairoch.

The viewpoint that European countries surged ahead due to the industrial revolution rather than colonial oppression has been widely debunked.

The relevant question is not so much why the industrial revolution occurred first in England,Scotland and Belgium, but why other advanced regions of the eighteenth century failed to adapt their handicraft manufacturers to the new conditions of production and competition in the 19th century.

The looms of India and China were defeated not so much by market competition as they were forcibly dismantled by war,invasion, opium and a Lancashire-imposed system of one-way tariffs.

It is indisputable that from about 1780 or 1800 onward every serious attempt by a non western society to move into a fast lane of development or to regulate its terms of trade was met by a military as well as an economic response from London or a competing imperial capital.The victorians according to Brian Bond's calculations resorted to gunboat on at least 75 different occasions.

India was the greatest captive market in world history, rising from third to first place among consumers of British exports in the quarter century after 1870."British Rulers" writes Marcello De Cecco , "deliberately prevented Indians from becoming skilled mechanics, refused contracts to Indian firms which produced materials that could be got from England, and generally hindered the formation of an autonomous industrial structure in India"

Thanks to a Government Stores policy that reserved most government purchases to British products and by the monopoly of British agency houses in organizing the import-export trade, India was forced to absorb Britain's surplus of increasingly obsolescent and non-competitive industrial exports.By 1910 this included two-fifths or the UK's finished cotton goods and pharmeceuticals.

As a result observes de Cecco, Britain avoided "having to restructure her industry and was able to invest her capital in the countries where it gave the highest return".Thanks to India, "British financiers were not compelled to 'tie' their loans to British Exports because the Imperial outlet was always available for British products."

But how in the age of famine, could the Indian subcontinent afford to subsidize its conqueror's suddenly precarious commercial supremacy?.In a word it could'nt and India was force marched into the world market by revenue and irrigation policies that compelled farmers to produce for foreign consumption at the price of their own food security.By the turn of the century, India was supplying nearly a fifth of Britain's wheat consumption.

References

1. Late Victorian Holocausts: El nino famines and the making of the third world - Mike Davis

2. An economic history of India - Dietmar Rothermund

3. The international gold standard: Money and Empire - Marcello De Cecco

Re: A Dust Over India

#120

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to. Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization. Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of th…

"Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the US government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/world/asia/18iht-letter18.... http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2091100,00.htm... People are holding hunger strikes to stand up against the corruption. When was the last time that happened in the US? You are rationalizing away al…

"People are holding hunger strikes to stand up against the corruption. When was the last time that happened in the US?"

The last major one was July 1st, 2011 in the California prison system.

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