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My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

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Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#51

Post by digging »

FredPret wrote: post #29
subhro wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you understand how privileged you are to be able to say that and hopefully do what you say.

This is so tiresome. If you’re reading this you’re privileged. Somewhere on this planet is a single individual human who is the very unluckiest and most unfortunate. Everyone else is privileged. Even that guy is lucky to be alive now and not 1000 years ago. None of this makes OP wrong.

Nothing you just posted is relevant to the conversation.

Most HN readers can't quit their job on a whim without putting their household in jeopardy. That's the sentiment you're responding to.

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#52

Post by tauwauwau »

toprerules wrote: post #9

I've seen so many editors come and go, and yet I've been using Vim for the past 20 years and have never had a problem. As stupid as it sounds, if I could give one piece of advice to any entry level SWE, it would be to learn Vim or Emacs and just stick with it for your whole career.

I don't even know what to say to this other than that you are right that it does sound stupid and it is stupid. A software developer should not be afraid of learning software, learning new things is fundamental in our work. Comparing an IDE with basic editor like vi, really, that may have worked out for you since you started 20 years ago when that worked, but it should not be the advice today.

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#53

Post by stackghost »

llm_trw wrote: post #42
twelve40 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this and the emacs sentiment really weird. I use vim daily for quick edits, but for any sizeable codebase, especially new/unfamiliar, IDE's are just better. It's like depriving yourself of a bunch of tools and helpers for no visible benefit.

Since I graduated, I've had people try to sell me on the following editors, which were going to be the future: BBEdit, TextMate, Sublime Text, Atom, Komodo Edit, NetBeans, and Eclipse. Each was going to kill Emacs. Somehow, I think I'll be using a version of Emacs until the day I can no longer type. Meanwhile, everyone else is wasting months getting up to speed on the latest and greatest thing every 8 years or so. Th…

>Meanwhile, everyone else is wasting months getting up to speed on the latest and greatest thing every 8 years or so.

Yeah I used to think this way, because you're right: becoming proficient in emacs takes significant effort and time.

But becoming proficient in VS code takes maybe 25 minutes. 25 minutes to change IDEs every 8 years or so doesn't seem like an onerous requirement to me.

Emacs just has extremely poor defaults and out of box UX.

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#54

Post by bitwize »

twelve40 wrote: post #19
toprerules wrote: post #9

I've seen so many editors come and go, and yet I've been using Vim for the past 20 years and have never had a problem. As stupid as it sounds, if I could give one piece of advice to any entry level SWE, it would be to learn Vim or Emacs and just stick with it for your whole career.

I find this and the emacs sentiment really weird. I use vim daily for quick edits, but for any sizeable codebase, especially new/unfamiliar, IDE's are just better. It's like depriving yourself of a bunch of tools and helpers for no visible benefit.

There are a number of neurodiverse hackers who've "switched off the targeting computer" precisely because it's disruptive to thought to always be having to constantly juggle the state of code in your head with the fucking video game appearing before your eyes as you type. I am one of them.

Recent research has confirmed that this is an actual phenomenon: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-35017-7_...

Discussed on Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36721055

If IDEs help you work better, that's great. Do not presume your experience and preference generalize to all.

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#55

Post by bramhaag »

toprerules wrote: post #9

I've seen so many editors come and go, and yet I've been using Vim for the past 20 years and have never had a problem. As stupid as it sounds, if I could give one piece of advice to any entry level SWE, it would be to learn Vim or Emacs and just stick with it for your whole career.

As someone who programs Java daily and uses Neovim daily, I don't think I could be any less productive than when programming with Java in nvim.

Some features that I do not have in nvim, but use daily in IntelliJ: Run configurations, proper debugger, SQL integration, hot reloading, and most importantly everything just working OOTB (auto complete, snippets, docs, ...). Can (n)vim do these things? Probably, but it'd take me days or even weeks to get it configured to the point where it's as seamless as IntelliJ.

I do use the IdeaVim plugin, so not all of my muscle memory is wasted.

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#56

Post by codingwagie »

JetBrains has gone downhill since they purged their original developers. The IDE is not as performant, and newer versions are full of bugs. I have heard this first hand from people in Russia. Cursor.sh and ai development tools are a huge threat to the company, and are far outside their core competency. Decent chance they cannot keep up with innovation, and their hyper tuned IDEs become obsolete.

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#57

Post by badrequest »

teddyh wrote: post #46
irrational wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, they are aware of what Emacs can do and still consider it to not be a real option for other reasons.

They would have to be rather specific and specialized reasons, and they did not specify anything of the kind, just “Go and Python”.

They don't "have" to be any of those things. People are not consistently rational actors, as evidenced by your continued advocacy for Emacs.

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#58

Post by cruffle_duffle »

hayertjez wrote: post #49
pluc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quit over principles about 9 months and 800 job applications ago. I'd advise not to do it unless you're sitting on a pile of cash.

Are you over reacting or really 800 job applications? An accomplishment for putting so many applications out!

I see you haven't been on the job market recently. 800 is nothing.

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#59

Post by kgeist »

phplovesong wrote: post #7

IIRC jetbrains was a russian company, backed by people close to putin. Then they "migrated" away from russia (jetbrains users are 90% westerners) to avoid losing their users, and even made some blog post about it, but from what i have heard the people behind the curtains whose names are in no legal papers are in fact still the same people with close ties to putin and his inner circle.

As far as I remember, JetBrains was founded in 2000 by a couple of Russian immigrants in Prague back when no one knew who Putin was. They had an office in St.Petersburg which was closed in 2022, they don't sell in Russia anymore, and ban all Russian users. What's the evidence of them having ties to Putin?

Re: My company has banned the use of Jetbrains IDEs internally

#60

Post by bawolff »

nineplay wrote: post #25
toprerules wrote: post #9

I've seen so many editors come and go, and yet I've been using Vim for the past 20 years and have never had a problem. As stupid as it sounds, if I could give one piece of advice to any entry level SWE, it would be to learn Vim or Emacs and just stick with it for your whole career.

I probably used vim exclusively for about a decade. I've worked with a handful of developers who've only used vim and I've only known one who was anywhere near as effective with it as most IDE users. A few examples -- debugging with print statement because they don't know how to use a command line debugger -- using find and grep to find files/methods -- hand-formatting files because they don't have a inline formatter…

I'm kind of doubtful of this. Just to take print debugging as an example. While there is definitely a time and place for debuggers, i think print debugging can be shockingly efficient in many circumstances.

Besides, typing speed is usually not the limiting factor in programming speed. I think overall efficiency needs to take a broader look.

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