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Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

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Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#21

Post by SoftwareMaven »

saraid216 wrote: post #16
mthreat wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was once banned from the Internet by the US gov't[1], I actually agree with you. People throw around terms like "human right" without knowing what it means. If access to the Internet is a human right, that means every human in the world should be able to demand access to the Internet? I think the Internet absolutely should receive First Amendment protection in the US (and the US Supreme Court agrees),…

> If access to the Internet is a human right, that means every human in the world should be able to demand access to the Internet? You seem to be asking this rhetorically, but I don't see what your objection to people being allowed to demand access to the Internet is. Could you actually spell it out?

What if I can't pay for it? Do I have the right to force somebody else to pay for it? Am I going to be forced to pay for the Internet of somebody else? Why is the Internet a human right but electricity, which is kind of critical to running the Internet, is not?

The Internet just seems really specific (see the list of others at http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/).

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#22

Post by SoftwareMaven »

roryokane wrote: post #19
spindritf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet. Isn't that already covered under freedom of speech?

I don’t think so. With only freedom of speech, the government could still ban access to all foreign-country-hosted read-only sites – sites without commenting or other interactivity. That would include many informational sites and blogs.

And does this prevent that? China and Iran signed on as well.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#23

Post by roryokane »

The Chinese delegate stipulated that the “free flow of information on the Internet and the safe flow of information on the Internet are mutually dependent” while signing the resolution. I think his supposed reasoning is that if people are scared of encountering “unsafe” things on the Internet, they will avoid the Internet and thus lose opportunities for speech. But that still seems pretty unconvincing – I’m having trouble understanding how the rest of the Human Rights Council can let China pretend to support the resolution when it has such a weak defense for its censorship policy.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#24

Post by _delirium »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #21
saraid216 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If access to the Internet is a human right, that means every human in the world should be able to demand access to the Internet? You seem to be asking this rhetorically, but I don't see what your objection to people being allowed to demand access to the Internet is. Could you actually spell it out?

What if I can't pay for it? Do I have the right to force somebody else to pay for it? Am I going to be forced to pay for the Internet of somebody else? Why is the Internet a human right but electricity, which is kind of critical to running the Internet, is not? The Internet just seems really specific (see the list of others at http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ ).

Most better-off countries treat electricity as something that if not a right, is at least a strong public-policy priority: something that we believe everyone should have access to. At least, to the extent that the country as a whole is developed enough for it to be feasible. And yes, that includes subsidizing it to improve access; rural electrification in the United States and Canada (at least) was massively subsidized.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#25

Post by _delirium »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #22
roryokane wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think so. With only freedom of speech, the government could still ban access to all foreign-country-hosted read-only sites – sites without commenting or other interactivity. That would include many informational sites and blogs.

And does this prevent that? China and Iran signed on as well.

In practice, no, because UN resolutions are only as good as their ability to enforce them, which in the case of general-assembly resolutions basically boils down to no ability, except attempting to shame people who flaunt them. Only a handful of UN organs (e.g. the Security Council and the International Criminal Court) have anything approaching teeth.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#26

Post by baddox »

kevinpet wrote: post #15
tikhonj wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet. This is no different from a right to, say, travel. The internet is particularly important because it is very good for getting a message out to the world at large. Other existing channels tend to be more difficult to use or more limited. The internet lets people document…

That's not what someone means when they say "every child has a right to an education". They do not mean "the government cannot prevent you from getting an education". They mean "the government must provide you with an education". No one has a right to travel. It's actually phrased as the right to freedom of movement, which is a good confusing phrase because it prevents you from thinking you already know what it means…

Another example is "the right to health care." People don't use that to mean that you have the right to pay thousands of dollars for an MRI. They generally mean the government should provide health care.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#27

Post by kkowalczyk »

adventureful wrote: post #18

Going to have to start by proclaiming that several other things are human rights before you get to Internet access. Access devices are a human right. Electricity is a human right. Access to telecom lines (of some sort) is a human right. Access to mobile or a spot to plug into is a human right. Transistors are a human right. Storage is a human right. Some kind of electronic or digital display is a human right.

First, this is a set not a list so it's nonsensical to rank those in importance.

More to the point, I don't read that proclamation as "everyone is entitled to internet access".

I read it as: no-one (specifically government) should be able to take away your access to internet.

The difference is not that subtle.

It's important because it counters a growing world-wide tendency to take away your access after some minor infractions like copyright infringement.

It rightly recognizes that access to internet is almost a necessity to conduct your daily business (in first world countries, at least) and denying that access creates incredible hardship and can ruin lives (ruin not at all rhetorically; if you, for example, make money via etsy or odesk, taking away this income might push you over the poverty line).

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#28

Post by sophacles »

kevinpet wrote: post #15
tikhonj wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet. This is no different from a right to, say, travel. The internet is particularly important because it is very good for getting a message out to the world at large. Other existing channels tend to be more difficult to use or more limited. The internet lets people document…

That's not what someone means when they say "every child has a right to an education". They do not mean "the government cannot prevent you from getting an education". They mean "the government must provide you with an education". No one has a right to travel. It's actually phrased as the right to freedom of movement, which is a good confusing phrase because it prevents you from thinking you already know what it means…

Your choice of an example is rather poor, as you now are conflating issues of children's rights with something else. Saying children have a right to an education only means we have to pay for them, because they regularly can't pay for themselves through no fault of their own - this is a different issue than what the right entails.

For many many many examples of how your argument breaks down, look no further than the US constitution. We have the right to freedom of the press - yet no one demands they get a free press. The right to bear arms - yet no one demands the government give everyone guns to exercise that right. The right not be compelled to self-incriminate, yet no one demands free paper shredders or disk wiping utilities. The right to sue anyone for more than $25, but no one demands free lawyers (for this purpose criminal defense is a different -- no disingenuous replies on this please).

So yeah a positive right in this case would provide an obligation for someone, but it doesn't mean providers must give no-charge options, it means the government would be obliged to not deny citizens internet access (except possibly as a penalty for crimes, ala prison does for a lot of rights).

Essentially this is a longwinded way of me stating this is a combination of strawman and slippery slope fallacies piled on factually incorrect statements.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#29

Post by Riesling »

mthreat wrote: post #13
mthreat wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was once banned from the Internet by the US gov't[1], I actually agree with you. People throw around terms like "human right" without knowing what it means. If access to the Internet is a human right, that means every human in the world should be able to demand access to the Internet? I think the Internet absolutely should receive First Amendment protection in the US (and the US Supreme Court agrees),…

Another point - people in prison still deserve "human rights", even though they've lost their right to freedom. This implies that even freedom isn't a human right. Of course, you could argue that this leads to a contradiction about taking away one's freedom, but that's another discussion.

I studied law in germany for a couple of semesters and I learned that human rights are never absolute. They are more like bubbles. Basically your right ends where it collides with someones else right or to paraphrase it "one man's freedom is another man's limitation".

The purpose of the law is to make sure, that those bubbles are about equally sized for everyone.

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