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Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

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Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#11

Post by spindritf »

tikhonj wrote: post #4
presidentender wrote: post #2

The concept of "rights" is growing less useful, I fear.

No it isn't. The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet. This is no different from a right to, say, travel. The internet is particularly important because it is very good for getting a message out to the world at large. Other existing channels tend to be more difficult to use or more limited. The internet lets people document…

> The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet.

Isn't that already covered under freedom of speech?

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#12

Post by jsnk »

presidentender wrote: post #2

The concept of "rights" is growing less useful, I fear.

This is actually an area for a long-lasting philosophical debate. Here's is a paper by Isaiah Berlin [1] on the debate over positive and negative liberty.

>The first of these political senses of freedom or liberty (I shall use both words to mean the same), which (following much precedent) I shall call the ‘negative’ sense, is involved in the answer to the question ‘What is the area within which the subject – a person or group of persons – is or should be left to do or be what he is able to do or be, without interference by other persons?’ The second, which I shall call the positive sense, is involved in the answer to the question ‘What, or who, is the source of control or interference, that can determine someone to do, or be, one thing rather than another?’ The two questions are clearly different, even though the answers to them may overlap.

[1] http://www1.nsd131.org/classpages/bwilliamson/Shared%20Docum...

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#13

Post by mthreat »

mthreat wrote: post #9
presidentender wrote: post #2

The concept of "rights" is growing less useful, I fear.

As someone who was once banned from the Internet by the US gov't[1], I actually agree with you. People throw around terms like "human right" without knowing what it means. If access to the Internet is a human right, that means every human in the world should be able to demand access to the Internet? I think the Internet absolutely should receive First Amendment protection in the US (and the US Supreme Court agrees),…

Another point - people in prison still deserve "human rights", even though they've lost their right to freedom. This implies that even freedom isn't a human right. Of course, you could argue that this leads to a contradiction about taking away one's freedom, but that's another discussion.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#15

Post by kevinpet »

tikhonj wrote: post #4
presidentender wrote: post #2

The concept of "rights" is growing less useful, I fear.

No it isn't. The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet. This is no different from a right to, say, travel. The internet is particularly important because it is very good for getting a message out to the world at large. Other existing channels tend to be more difficult to use or more limited. The internet lets people document…

That's not what someone means when they say "every child has a right to an education". They do not mean "the government cannot prevent you from getting an education". They mean "the government must provide you with an education".

No one has a right to travel. It's actually phrased as the right to freedom of movement, which is a good confusing phrase because it prevents you from thinking you already know what it means. You have (in a free country) the right to go where you want. You don't have the right to a plane ticket.

Positive rights are dangerous. Positive rights inherently impose obligations on someone. They should be phrased that way to begin with. I can rationally discuss the idea of "education is an obligation of government" because it means what it says. If I dare say "children don't have a right to an education" I'll get lynched.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#16

Post by saraid216 »

mthreat wrote: post #9
presidentender wrote: post #2

The concept of "rights" is growing less useful, I fear.

As someone who was once banned from the Internet by the US gov't[1], I actually agree with you. People throw around terms like "human right" without knowing what it means. If access to the Internet is a human right, that means every human in the world should be able to demand access to the Internet? I think the Internet absolutely should receive First Amendment protection in the US (and the US Supreme Court agrees),…

> If access to the Internet is a human right, that means every human in the world should be able to demand access to the Internet?

You seem to be asking this rhetorically, but I don't see what your objection to people being allowed to demand access to the Internet is. Could you actually spell it out?

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#17

Post by saraid216 »

kevinpet wrote: post #15
tikhonj wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet. This is no different from a right to, say, travel. The internet is particularly important because it is very good for getting a message out to the world at large. Other existing channels tend to be more difficult to use or more limited. The internet lets people document…

That's not what someone means when they say "every child has a right to an education". They do not mean "the government cannot prevent you from getting an education". They mean "the government must provide you with an education". No one has a right to travel. It's actually phrased as the right to freedom of movement, which is a good confusing phrase because it prevents you from thinking you already know what it means…

I'm okay with saying that it's an obligation.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#18

Post by adventureful »

Going to have to start by proclaiming that several other things are human rights before you get to Internet access.

Access devices are a human right. Electricity is a human right. Access to telecom lines (of some sort) is a human right. Access to mobile or a spot to plug into is a human right. Transistors are a human right. Storage is a human right. Some kind of electronic or digital display is a human right.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#19

Post by roryokane »

spindritf wrote: post #11
tikhonj wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet. This is no different from a right to, say, travel. The internet is particularly important because it is very good for getting a message out to the world at large. Other existing channels tend to be more difficult to use or more limited. The internet lets people document…

> The point isn't that you should get free internet--the point is that a government should not prevent you from freely using the internet. Isn't that already covered under freedom of speech?

I don’t think so. With only freedom of speech, the government could still ban access to all foreign-country-hosted read-only sites – sites without commenting or other interactivity. That would include many informational sites and blogs.

Re: Internet Access Is a Human Right, Says United Nations

#20

Post by zcid »

mthreat wrote: post #13
mthreat wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was once banned from the Internet by the US gov't[1], I actually agree with you. People throw around terms like "human right" without knowing what it means. If access to the Internet is a human right, that means every human in the world should be able to demand access to the Internet? I think the Internet absolutely should receive First Amendment protection in the US (and the US Supreme Court agrees),…

Another point - people in prison still deserve "human rights", even though they've lost their right to freedom. This implies that even freedom isn't a human right. Of course, you could argue that this leads to a contradiction about taking away one's freedom, but that's another discussion.

Via the social contract, by infringing on the rights of another, one volunteers to temporarily suspend the right to freedom. A right cannot be taken away or lost as they are inherent to the human condition.
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