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Mitochondria Are Alive

asimov.press

311–320 of 412 posts

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's based on the fact that one explanation of why there's not even millions more species of all life, is because the more successful ones simply cannibalized the less successful ones. This would've started even before complex life, almost at the chemical level. I say cannibalized, because avoiding eating your own species is a higher brain function that would've came far later, so it came down to eat or be eaten. Sti…

>I say cannibalized, because avoiding eating your own species is a higher brain function that would've came far later, Two convergent intuitions as to why this is true, but for the wrong reasons: Species (maybe only [di?]morphic ones) rarely kill other instances of their own species, only maim - usually to the point of socially/reproductive shame/selective behavior; as infra-species violence is usually done for sexua…

I have no idea what you meant by liver. Maybe it's a biology term I'm unaware of. Certainly you didn't mean the organ. lolz.

Anyway, an interesting point about evolution is that things had to have been eating other smaller things long before the brain had enough processing power for "Species Recognition". It would've initially been a simple brain and rod/cone eye neuron and motor neuron in a fish that executed primary the rule of "See movement then execute tail wag, open mouth, close mouth" in that order. It takes like 5 neurons wired in a specific way to accomplish that. The first neurons had to have been that simple. Indeed the chain reaction of "input photon and convert energy into motor neuron charge potential" had to have been the actual chemical process that eventually developed the first neuron to begin with.

It was only after MUCH more evolution that avoidance of eating one's own species would've been possible by visual inspection of the prey. However, it's true it could have been a 'taste' signal where the scales of your own species had a bad enough taste that you spit it out rather than eating it, and that can be accomplished also with a brain of only a few neurons.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#312
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot more to a person than genetic code. We are not IKEA chairs and DNA is not the assembly instructions.

I don't think that DNA is just procedural assembly instructions. Though maybe more akin to something like the encoding of a neural network. Granted I have a basic understanding of DNA.

Maybe you saw this paper about that idea - The Genomic Code: The genome instantiates a generative model of the organism.

"Here, we propose a new analogy, inspired by recent work in machine learning and neuroscience: that the genome encodes a generative model of the organism. In this scheme, by analogy with variational autoencoders, the genome does not encode either organismal form or developmental processes directly, but comprises a compressed space of latent variables."

1. https://arxiv.org/abs/2407.15908 2. discussion with the authors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QaMnUBkmz4

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The implication of the whole article is that there something we have missed. I think this article is talking to people who haven't internalized the details of the scientific consensus. Those people are still going around, talking about "life" and making decisions based on the flawed understanding this article is critiquing. I think it's likely that the thing that "has been missed" is not narrowly scientific in the…

I am not sure what exactly the 'broad implications and worldview' are here that are being challenged. The article is presented as a scientific opinion and references scientific research and has a doi number for citation (Cite: Liyam Chitayat. “Mitochondria Are Alive” Asimov Press (2024). DOI: https://doi.org/10.62211/38pe-75hu ). What do you think that the article was challenging?

Life is just an arbitrary number of magnitude of complexity

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#314
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about obligate intracellular parasites like mycoplasma? They are awfully close to mitochondria but we think of them as alive. They've lost many of their genes and can't survive without the host. Looking at those, you could almost see a path from an obligate intraceullular parasite to an organelle derived from a phagocytosed prokaryote.

But that’s exactly what they are, former endoparasites which gradually lost their independence and became more specialist in their function. Defining an arbitrary line and then attaching labels does not really add to understanding.

[deleted]

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#315
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure you should be relying on an LLM as any indication of anything... More seriously, considering something as being alive in order to engineer them better does not necessarily change the fact of them actually being alive or not, in my opinion.

If LLMs work the way I understand them to, they are trained on large corpora which contain a statistical preponderance of statements which are consistent with the current scientific mainstream, so it may not be completely crazy to try doing this; you'd get the scientific mainstream explanation, and possibly a few alternative hypotheses if they had enough literature support.

You are literally saying this novel thing is wrong because this thing that can't say novel things says the thing that's not novel is not novel.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#316
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually never heard the phrase until I got online and saw the meme! My biology classes did have us gene editing bacteria to chance its color. That was fun! > The only one that comes close is Athlete's Foot, which makes the victim sound cool. The best cure for athletes foot is a 30 minute soak in diluted bleach. Get a wash basin, fill it with warm water, and add enough bleach so that it tingles a little bit. Do thi…

According to my doctor, this can weaken the skin too much. 30 minutes is quite a long time.

Depends on how diluted the bleach is. Also 30 minutes may be more than necessary, but it's what I've always done for athlete's foot. For other random crap that's tries to grow on my skin I'll dilute some bleach on a paper towel and let that sit on whatever is trying to eat me.

The basis of this technique is that you have skin to spare, and your skin regrows.

Unlike the fungus.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#317

This article is framed as if there is something novel and profound here, but the "aliveness" of mitochondria is simply a matter of how we choose to apply the label "life" - a human linguistic construct that exists independently of the biological phenomena. This is not a new discussion - science has been considering this question for many decades, just as it has with viruses. These all come down to arguments about sem…

> Most of their genes, the code for their structure, are in the nuclear DNA. Are they? I was under the impression that mitochondria are closer to pseudo-cells living inside human cells. Wikipedia seems to confirm this [1]: > Although most of a eukaryotic cell's DNA is contained in the cell nucleus, the mitochondrion has its own genome ("mitogenome") that is substantially similar to bacterial genomes. [1] https://en.w…

Yea I would def. not call mitochondria "alive" since they are so deeply integrated with the rest of the cell & vice versa.

mito is like principle derives from the concept of "the selfish gene" or "the red queen" these famous books on the topic. Arms races between X and Y chromosome. Arms race between nucleus and mitochondria, and so on.

or put it this way. why do all animals have sex? because it generates gene sequences that confer fitness more efficiently than self-replication (which is the typical repro method of unix programmers)... .. generates such gene sequences for NUCLEAR DNA that is, mito DNA comes from mom only (the red queen.. .. "mitochondrial eve" ... "y chromosomal adam".. etc). and thus the mito is fundamentally unable to wield the power of evolution, completely evolutionarily outclassed by those nuclear chromosomes. thus exporting all its genes to the nucleus, conferring advantage to all such progeny with their superior power supply

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#318
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given how power-intensive intelligence is I’m not convinced there’s a reason to think intelligence is inherently power-intensive. Based on our limited samples, it’s certainly energy intensive, but there’s no reason it couldn’t be slowed down. In a world with less power available to life, one would expect speeds of e.g. predators and prey to be slower, allowing a slower intelligence to still provide an advantage.

> not convinced there’s a reason to think intelligence is inherently power-intensive Sure. But we know it empirically is. Our brains are expensive.

> Sure. But we know it empirically is. Our brains are expensive.

But our brains have mitochondria. As do our prey, and our predators. Is there any reason to suppose that the absence of mitochondria implies less potential for intelligence, instead of the potential for equal but slower intelligence? Mitochondria are about power production, not energy production -- they are a very dense source of ATP, but the reactions they use would provide equal energy even if less concentrated.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#319

It reminds me the game Parasite Eve.

I don't know why this is being downvoted. It's quite apropos for being a piece of fiction toying with this very concept.

It is a videogame based on/continuing a cheesy scifi novel that played with the concept of mitochondria being alive (also sentient). Sure it's not quite scientifically sound, but it still explains the concept with enough actual facts (very easy to distinguish from the fictional ones), and the ludicrous nature of it all makes it so you won't *ever* forget that mitochondria are in fact a part of the cell and their normal function is being involved in energy production.

I can warrant 90% of people who ever thought about the mitochondrion's existence and function (beyond basic school formation) that aren't working or studying in related fields are just people who played this game. I can bet there's a non-zero amount of scientists that got into this stuff because they played the game as kids or teens.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _think_ what they mean is it's not typically listed as a "life form" in its own right, i.e., there's no Domain under which one would classify Mitochondria - maybe just calling them bacteria would capture the article's intent? So, the modification would be that we are living in symbiosis with mitochondrial bacteria, similar to how we live in symbiosis with our gut bacteria, rather than them being classified as "orga…

Of course it is classified. In Wikipedia itself there is a phylogenetic tree listing its closest relative the alphaproteobacteria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion#Origin_and_evolu...

Yeah, the wikipedia entry is actually a good example.. it starts with

> A mitochondrion (pl. mitochondria) is an organelle found in the cells of most eukaryotes, such as animals, plants and fungi.

and the "classification" is introduced with

> There are two hypotheses about the origin of mitochondria: endosymbiotic and autogenous.

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