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Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

beige.party

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Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#131

Post by isodev »

notpushkin wrote: post #121
isodev wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we actually count the number of instances and users on Mastodon (the fediverse)? I have alt accounts in at least two separate "bubbles" of servers that only federate with each other and wouldn't show up in stats like this.

This is a rather tricky question. What does count as the fediverse in the first place?

I assume nodes capable of interacting via activity pub? Good question - if a server uses activity pub but not in a way that's compatible with say mastodon (e.g. they use notes for a different purpose), then does this count or not?

I think framing social networks with metrics like number of nodes or active daily users is inadequate and only designed to appeal to some VC/founder mode bros.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#132

Post by jauntywundrkind »

pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

Thanks Paul & all.

I also enjoyed Brian Newbold 's post from early August taking inventory of how Bluesky is doing so far at being decentralizable, and what's remaining,

https://bnewbold.net/2024/atproto_progress/

There's some wildly negative often wildly in my view inaccurate posts down below slinging all kinds of things. So much of it is so wildly off base.

Atproto dev has a ton of strong wins already, and there's been a massive influx of dev interest in the past few weeks. Really looking forward to seeing this ecosystem bloom. I feel like we are at an inflection point.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#133

Post by evbogue »

pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

Yes, of course Bluesky is federated. The hosts hold onto your keypairs. The DID:PLC is a substring of your first hash.

For those of you who are interested in solving this my first suggestion is to read the Scuttlebot docs which are still up at: https://scuttlebot.io/

Sometimes I think about a retro Scuttlebot revival. If you want to set sail on this kind of project, contact info is in my bio.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#134

Post by selecsosi »

evbogue wrote: post #133
pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

Yes, of course Bluesky is federated. The hosts hold onto your keypairs. The DID:PLC is a substring of your first hash. For those of you who are interested in solving this my first suggestion is to read the Scuttlebot docs which are still up at: https://scuttlebot.io/ Sometimes I think about a retro Scuttlebot revival. If you want to set sail on this kind of project, contact info is in my bio.

Always liked the ssb protocol and had an account but am just not much of a poster to ever add much value. Appreciate the design and open build process. Been following for a long time, hope you are doing well

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#135

Post by dartos »

Matl wrote: post #75
pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

> For DID PLC, the likely solution is to move the registry into a nonprofit which will maintain it, similar to ICANN. ICANN is rather centralized. This is the biggest concern I have with ATProto, I would have expected it to work over P2P i.e. IPNS, or even some sort of a blockchain rather than a centralized web server.

I central authority with escape hatches is okay, I think.

One could start their own DNS server with different records than the ICANN ones, thus ignoring their authority.

As long as that possibility exists, it’s fine.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#136

Post by pxoe »

toofy wrote: post #128
lukan wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like." So everytime you move, can you take your existing network and posts and messages with you, or do you have to start from scratch every time?

well my comment was specifically pointing out that giving someone agency is the opposite of “a problem.” i was pointing out that having options to spend your freetime how and where you like is the literal opposite of forcing you to “the will of a server” or whatever their statement was. to your comment, the ability to keep posts and such is going to vary by which system you’re using, for example: - twitter, absolutel…

"backing up" and data takeouts are not data portability, cause with mastodon you can't actually move posts between servers. so it's like, literally what's the point if you cannot actually move your content and it's gonna be a flush and start new again, which in that regard is no different than moving from one proprietary platform to another

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#137

Post by pxoe »

cuu508 wrote: post #55
pxoe wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what does have a "big claim" that they have "no algorithm" is mastodon, which says so on its joinmastodon.org page and in its instance blurb. which just so obviously could not even possibly be true.

The news feed in Mastodon is chronologic, it includes all posts from the accounts you follow (and have not muted).

it's not even the follows feed, but suggestions and explore with its sections. like, explore feed of posts is just straight up an algorithmic assembly of posts. (looking at mastodon.social, "the original server") the explore feed has a blurb about "how it ranks posts" which is literally next to their "no algorithms in sight" tagline. do they think their users are stupid? or are they just fine with making such obvious lies?

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#138

Post by Kye »

j_maffe wrote: post #82
Kye wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chronological sorting is an algorithm. You don't hear its dissenters as much, but it's not without issue. It's not always the best way to present things.

Repeating my comment here because some people are deliberately stick manning this argument: > In the context of social media, people mean highly optimized algorithms for maximum retention.

I don't know what "stick manning" is and I don't appreciate the claim I'm doing it deliberately when I don't even know what it is. Don't assume everyone who disagrees with you is some insincere agitator who's hip to whatever weird debate shibboleths you've glommed on to.

I was simply informing you that:

* Chronological is an algorithm

* It, like all ways of sorting feeds, has its own controversies

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#139

Post by macobrien »

innocentoldguy wrote: post #61
jeroenhd wrote: post #12

Bluesky's marketing is rather annoying on my opinion. They're not defederated in practice and they probably never will be, but that's okay. People don't want a new Mastodon, they want a new Twitter after Musk fucked that up worse than ever. Their promises of portability may ring empty but so far their lack of AI algorithm and ad feeds are what people actually come to Bluesky for If you want federation, ActivityPub is…

How did Musk "fuck [Twitter] up worse than ever"? It has more functionality and is more stable since Musk bought it.

To give just one example, sometime in March of this year, a bug appeared in the Android app that prevents loading of new posts for several minutes after the phone is plugged in to charge. It's now been 7 months, and the bug has not been fixed.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#140

Post by packetlost »

Matl wrote: post #75
pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

> For DID PLC, the likely solution is to move the registry into a nonprofit which will maintain it, similar to ICANN. ICANN is rather centralized. This is the biggest concern I have with ATProto, I would have expected it to work over P2P i.e. IPNS, or even some sort of a blockchain rather than a centralized web server.

It's not really possible to avoid bootstrapping on a centralized authority in general, and DNS seems like a mostly reasonable backstop for that. As others have said, you can make your own DNS network and people have.
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