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Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

beige.party

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Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#51

Post by toofy »

pxoe wrote: post #43

Mastodon is not decentralized, it's federated. It doesn't solve some of the problems that come with centralization, it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server). And funnily, it doesn't even solve data portability entirely (you can't actually move your posts). Mastodon's "decentralization" is even worse than a "theoretical promise" of one, cause it's a just marketing prom…

> it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server).

this isn’t a “problem” that needs to be solved. you’re not “at the will of the server” in a federated environment, its the actual literal opposite. if i don’t like the server operators or if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like.

this is a good thing, not a “problem.” the ability to freely move and the freedom to associate is incredibly important. and for some weird reason people keep pretending like these things aren’t important if it’s online. its ridiculous.

if i don’t want to spend my play time around eric, i should absolutely be able to move and play somewhere else without eric. that’s actual freedom. if you try to keep me in one place or force me to play with eric, you’re trapping me.

no, the ability to pick and choose how, why, where, and with who i spend my free time is important, its not a “problem”. that’s agency, and i wish people would quit arguing against agency and calling it a problem.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#52

Post by maelito »

pfraze wrote: post #11
threeseed wrote: post #6

Not sure how it is better than Threads. At least Meta is delivering on their promise to integrate with Mastodon and move us closer to decentralised social networks.

Bluesky integrates with Mastodon better than Threads does at this point. I have bidirectional conversations with mastodon users, with notifications, using a bridge called BridgyFed. I can follow Mastodon users on Bluesky. I can’t with Threads.

How seamless is it ? Any daily problems ? Can you show a link to a conversation made this way ?

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#53

Post by zimpenfish »

pxoe wrote: post #43

Mastodon is not decentralized, it's federated. It doesn't solve some of the problems that come with centralization, it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server). And funnily, it doesn't even solve data portability entirely (you can't actually move your posts). Mastodon's "decentralization" is even worse than a "theoretical promise" of one, cause it's a just marketing prom…

> (you can't actually move your posts)

You can export and import, I believe, for some instances but generically re-posting them to a new instance with the old date isn't currently feasible[0], correct.

You also need to re-federate them to get the "links" correct (and probably de-federate the old) which causes confusing results if your client doesn't handle backdated posts correctly (and most of the ones I was using in 2023 didn't.)

There's probably a solution[1][2] but I think it's something the ActivityPub people just haven't given much thought to just yet.

[0] No date field in https://docs.joinmastodon.org/methods/statuses/#create

[1] When I was importing a 10 year Twitter history to my Akkoma instance, I just tweaked the code to a) allow backdating posts, b) allow certain accounts to backdate posts and c) not federate backdated posts from those accounts. Doesn't really solve the full problem but worked for me.

[2] Obviously there's other problems such as people creating fake history, etc., if you're allowed to post backdated statuses.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#54

Post by miki123211 »

IoI_xD wrote: post #30
pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

> We never said no algorithm. I don’t know where that meme comes from. It comes from the people who don't know what an algorithm is but heard that Twitter has it and it's making them doomscroll so it's bad (which is not to defend Twitter or other social media's algorithms, but to say that some people seem to have a blind hatred of them entirely due to misconceptions)

And to be extra clear, "only show posts from people I follow, in chronological order" is an algorithm.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#55

Post by cuu508 »

pxoe wrote: post #46
its-summertime wrote: post #13

> BlueSky's big claim is [they have] "no algorithm". https://bsky.social/about/blog/3-30-2023-algorithmic-choice Over a year ago, a blog claiming the opposite > But the actual BlueSky app does not implement DIDs. It's called "did-placeholder" on their github. It's a stub. It's TBD. It's not a feature, it's a feature request. AFAIK People with did:web dids can make accounts and use bluesky > And guess who just bought…

what does have a "big claim" that they have "no algorithm" is mastodon, which says so on its joinmastodon.org page and in its instance blurb. which just so obviously could not even possibly be true.

The news feed in Mastodon is chronologic, it includes all posts from the accounts you follow (and have not muted).

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#56

Post by cuu508 »

scirob wrote: post #50

People on mastodon are so toxic. I tried to contribute code and content was threatened with lawsuits by people who don't understand that their protocol is explicitly designed for open data

Can you share a link to where this happened?

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#57

Post by Aeolun »

kristo wrote: post #40
pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

I don’t understand what the naysayers want? They want an app that is decentralized, completely free, uses nothing remotely related to crypto, doesn’t serve ads, and where it starts day 1 with a robust ecosystem of applications using it. These people are just winging for followers IMO.

I mean, I very much desire the ‘not crypto’ part of that. All the rest is optional. Facebook is better than crypto.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#58

Post by arromatic »

IoI_xD wrote: post #30
pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

> We never said no algorithm. I don’t know where that meme comes from. It comes from the people who don't know what an algorithm is but heard that Twitter has it and it's making them doomscroll so it's bad (which is not to defend Twitter or other social media's algorithms, but to say that some people seem to have a blind hatred of them entirely due to misconceptions)

You expressed it perfectly in word which i couldn't. People's hate for algorithm is so weird . Without the algorithm they can never find quality or content they are interest in .

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#59

Post by badgersnake »

kristo wrote: post #40
pfraze wrote: post #3

Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email. We never said no algorithm. I don’t know whe…

I don’t understand what the naysayers want? They want an app that is decentralized, completely free, uses nothing remotely related to crypto, doesn’t serve ads, and where it starts day 1 with a robust ecosystem of applications using it. These people are just winging for followers IMO.

A social network that’s not controlled by, or potentially controlled by a billionaire.

The traits required to become a billionaire are not the traits required to run a social network. This should be obvious by now. Zaphod Beeblebrox had no actual power for a reason.

Re: Bluesky Is Not Decentralized

#60

Post by openrisk »

It is interesting that nobody comments on the "ownership" data point of the post.

> And guess who just bought a seat on BlueSky's board with a $15M Series A round?

Yet that is the only thing that matters.

The technical pieces for a vast range of alternative designs for online interactions are already available. Decentralized, federated, distributed, peer-to-peer. Who cares? What matters is the outcome.

What is entirely missing in these silly "protocol wars" is any concrete and realistic vision of what that "good next generation Web" looks like, not technically, but economically, socially and politically. Who gets empowered and who gets exploited. Who gets (and how strong) a voice and who gets manipulated by that voice.

The prior norms, social contracts and institutions we used to have in the pre-digital era have been completely corrupted yet there is no visible replacement beyond some vague ideals.

The shape of the "next gen web" very much depends on who funds it, why (what incentives and expectations do they have) and how (what incentives and expectations do they create to the vast ecosystems of developers, entrepreneurs, moderators, users, etc).

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