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The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

nih.gov

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Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#71

Post by ClearAndPresent »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #64
ClearAndPresent wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul's animation wasn't playing at an even rate for me, for some reason, so I created two video versions (8Hz and 12Hz) with the 16 second on/off period, starting with an off period, running for 254 seconds, as per the paper. These versions end with an an additional off period, as a 'cool down' from the flicker. Framerate of 24Hz differs from the 120Hz as presented in the paper, but here there is no 40Hz flicker atte…

What is the difference or use cases for 8Hz vs. 12Hz?

My understanding from the paper is there is no difference between 4, 8, 12, and 40Hz frequencies on the neurobiologcial effects, but I found the 8Hz a bit less comfortable than the 12, so I uploaded both.

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#72

Post by haccount »

altruios wrote: post #67
haccount wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible. But only for the brains of people with severe or undertreated epilepsy of carefully selected varieties. You can trigger a potentially fatal seizure by showing them an appropriately stimulating image. Which likely was a known concept to the author of the story. For the rest of us the negative feedback along the optical axis puts a stop to such shenanigans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollough_effect is evidence to the contrary. This seems to rewire something outside the optical pathway. The effect can last for months. Works on almost all brains, no epilepsy required...

That sounds more like a learned visual effect, something quite different from frying the brain of anyone with a basilisk.

Experiments with cats( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1111849/ ), and the outcome of patients with strabismus/lazy eye(effective blindness on defective eye), suggests that seeing (or not seeing) is a learned trait. Which is a few steps removed from being a backdoor to epileptic seizures or remote controlling heart activity

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#73

Post by sharpshadow »

ClearAndPresent wrote: post #59
PaulKeeble wrote: post #4

There have been a couple of papers [1] that can induce this process while awake using particular image patterns as confirmed in an MRI. I think the NIH confirmation is running behind in the science, independent research is quite a bit ahead of them. I came across the paper on this last year and implemented a very simple page with the parameters they used [2]. There is a number of disease models that show reduced or n…

Paul's animation wasn't playing at an even rate for me, for some reason, so I created two video versions (8Hz and 12Hz) with the 16 second on/off period, starting with an off period, running for 254 seconds, as per the paper. These versions end with an an additional off period, as a 'cool down' from the flicker. Framerate of 24Hz differs from the 120Hz as presented in the paper, but here there is no 40Hz flicker atte…

Would be interesting to find out if there could be an desired effect of this in conjunction with binaural beats.

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#74

Post by shagie »

reverius42 wrote: post #13
khafra wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is some amazing work; and it also raises my belief that a Langford Basilisk is neurologically possible by about 25%

Thanks for introducing me to the concept! Just read the short story I assume you are referring to: https://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/blit.htm

https://www.nature.com/articles/44964 is also a fun read on the BLIT.

I also recommend Different Kinds of Darkness.

https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/different-kinds-o...

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#75

Post by shagie »

hobs wrote: post #47
evanjrowley wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll also find a similar concept throughout David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest (1996).

Charles Stross who for some reason posted on usenet about it in the wikipedia article uses a form of this to great effect in several books in The Laundry Files

Accelerando : https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/acceler...

    Not everything is sweetness and light in the era of mature nanotechnology. Widespread intelligence amplification doesn't lead to widespread rational behavior. New religions and mystery cults explode across the planet; much of the Net is unusable, flattened by successive semiotic jihads. India and Pakistan have held their long-awaited nuclear war: external intervention by US and EU nanosats prevented most of the IRBMs from getting through, but the subsequent spate of network raids and Basilisk attacks cause havoc. Luckily, infowar turns out to be more survivable than nuclear war – especially once it is discovered that a simple anti-aliasing filter stops nine out of ten neural-wetware-crashing Langford fractals from causing anything worse than a mild headache.

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#76

Post by vardump »

flotzam wrote: post #41
PaulKeeble wrote: post #4

There have been a couple of papers [1] that can induce this process while awake using particular image patterns as confirmed in an MRI. I think the NIH confirmation is running behind in the science, independent research is quite a bit ahead of them. I came across the paper on this last year and implemented a very simple page with the parameters they used [2]. There is a number of disease models that show reduced or n…

Very cool! Five minutes of this felt strangely soothing in my head, after a few nights of not enough sleep. Being able to set a max duration would be neat, in case it's unsafe to lose track of time and let the pattern run for too long? Classic outdated comment BTW ;) setInterval(flickerImage, 250); // 8hz

Isn't that 4 Hz?

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#77

Post by diggan »

criddell wrote: post #70
ClearAndPresent wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul's animation wasn't playing at an even rate for me, for some reason, so I created two video versions (8Hz and 12Hz) with the 16 second on/off period, starting with an off period, running for 254 seconds, as per the paper. These versions end with an an additional off period, as a 'cool down' from the flicker. Framerate of 24Hz differs from the 120Hz as presented in the paper, but here there is no 40Hz flicker atte…

The idea that watching a video triggers some waste clearing mechanism is pretty wild. Makes me think of Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash where a datafile can be a narcotic or mind virus. Maybe that's not such a crazy idea?

> The idea that watching a video triggers some waste clearing mechanism is pretty wild.

It kind of makes sense. We can look at images of food and get a physical reaction like hunger, or look at macabre images and feel disgust, or stare at animations for one minute and then be affected for many minutes afterwards when we look away.

It doesn't surprise me we're still discovering new mechanisms for triggering physical reactions in our bodies.

Edit: I do agree it's pretty wild regardless :) Especially wild if we're finally discovering mechanisms that have useful effects, not just "fun" effects like visual distortion.

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#78

Post by altruios »

haccount wrote: post #72
altruios wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollough_effect is evidence to the contrary. This seems to rewire something outside the optical pathway. The effect can last for months. Works on almost all brains, no epilepsy required...

That sounds more like a learned visual effect, something quite different from frying the brain of anyone with a basilisk. Experiments with cats( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1111849/ ), and the outcome of patients with strabismus/lazy eye(effective blindness on defective eye), suggests that seeing (or not seeing) is a learned trait. Which is a few steps removed from being a backdoor to epileptic seizures or remote…

Exert from that same wiki page about the anti-McCollough effect, I may have the two confused.

Given that AMEs do transfer interocularly,[8] it is reasonable to suppose that they must occur in higher, binocular regions of the brain. Despite producing a less saturated illusory color, the induction of an AME may override a previously induced ME, providing additional weight to the argument that AMEs occur in the higher visual areas than MEs.[8]

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#79

Post by knodi »

canadiantim wrote: post #62

Really shows the slow slow slow glacial pace of science and how fragmented the information distribution mechanisms are…

Or the brain is high complex organ and full of MANY known and unknown functions which meet a specific or general need. Don't forget, it took us 100k years as human to get here, our current understanding of brain. you're being a little harsh here.

Re: The brain's waste clearing lymphatic system shown in people for first time

#80

Post by criddell »

ClearAndPresent wrote: post #71
Workaccount2 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference or use cases for 8Hz vs. 12Hz?

My understanding from the paper is there is no difference between 4, 8, 12, and 40Hz frequencies on the neurobiologcial effects, but I found the 8Hz a bit less comfortable than the 12, so I uploaded both.

Do these need to be full screen with your face close to the screen to fill my field of vision, or would it work just as well watching it in a smaller window, on an iPad or even on a phone?
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