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Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

phoronix.com

191–200 of 251 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>[...] peppered with fancy latin idioms (for style I guess) [...] I honestly don't think you understand the thesis or have the historical understanding to do so. This accusation of using Latin for rhetorical purposes is an admission of this. You could've asked yourself "Do I understand the significance of Carthago delenda est in this context? Could I ask for clarification?" No, you just made a sophistic jibe, twice.…

You could've asked yourself "Do I understand the significance of Carthago delenda est in this context? Could I ask for clarification?" And if you prefer to believe that if people don't buy into your hand-wavy, faux-erudite arguments, then it must be because they're simply too dumb to understand the intended import of Carthago delenda est -- then that may provide you with an additional layer of comfort. I honestly don…

>I understand that historical references can definitely add depth to a conversation, but if they aren’t framed well or contextualized, they come off as pretentious. I don't think you did a good job contextualizing your references, so it comes off to me as pseudo-intellectual and apologetic for the Russians. Comparing an active warzone to historical trivia also seems inappropriate for reasons I don't quite understand. I might be misunderstanding what you're saying, can you clarify what you meant by Carthago delenda est?

Sure, I'd be happy to clarify! In the ancient Mediterranean, Rome and Carthage were the two dominant powers. The phrase Carthago delenda est, meaning "Carthage must be destroyed," was used by Roman statesman Cato the Elder to stress the need for Carthage’s complete elimination in the leadup to the Third (and final) Punic War, even though Carthage wasn’t an active threat at that point. Rome imposed strict limits on Carthage’s military actions, and despite Carthage adhering to these treaties, Rome still found a pretext to accuse them of aggression after a conflict with a neighboring kingdom. Ultimately, Rome used this as justification to invade, destroy the city, and remove Carthage as a competitor entirely.

In invoking this reference, I’m suggesting that geopolitical dynamics often follow a similar logic—where powerful nations might frame another power as a threat, even if that threat is not imminent, in order to justify aggressive actions. I’m not apologizing for Russian actions, but pointing out that the motivations behind international conflicts often follow the same patterns throughout history: framing one power as an existential threat to justify intervention or destruction, whether or not the threat is real.

When we start framing the people of entire nations as irredeemable enemies even in our own private thoughts, it becomes easier to rationalize extreme actions that we would otherwise question (such as flippantly fracturing the global FOSS community). My point isn’t to excuse Russia’s actions but to highlight how these narratives can be manipulated, often leading to outcomes that are far more destructive than if people kept things in perspective.

Hope that helps. :)

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#192
post #164
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia invaded it’s neighbor. These sanctions are one of the consequences. It sucks for the good-faith programmers in Russia but what would you have the rest of the world do? The Russian state must be sanctioned for its blatant disregard for international norms. Please don’t just respond with whataboutism. The whataboutism in these threads involves different people in different times. This is happening now.

When the word "whataboutism" is used, you know it's the one rejection of a valid argument or analogy that helps clarify the argument. The ones that can't deal with that coined the therm "whataboutism".

Whataboutism isn't an argument, it's a deflection.

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#193

If this was purely because of sanctions, this could have been handled much more gracefully. But it's clear from Linus' comments that he just doesn't respect these volunteers because they happen to be from a particular country. > I'm Finnish. ... Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too. If we're suddenly taking history as a criterion, half of the world should ban British develope…

A lot of these developers work at Russian war machine and secret police suppliers (like ALT Linux or Baikal) so no this is not just that.

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument that Russia is solely responsible for destabilizing the region mirrors a familiar rhetorical pattern seen throughout history, where weaker powers are trapped in a Kafka trap[1]. Any resistance or reaction by the weaker side justifies further aggression from the stronger power, leading to their gradual erosion and disappearance through salami slicing tactics[2]. Whether through territorial encroachment o…

This is a very US centric take. NATO isn't expanding to increase US power over Russia. Independent, self-determined countries seek to join NATO to bolster their defense against the local aggressive neighbour. This should be very clear when you consider how NATO has expanded: not by US invitation to join them, but rather by Russian neighbours seeking an alliance to finally rid themselves of the threat. > Russia's resp…

I agree it is a US-centric take, but I disagree that the expansion of NATO is not principally about expanding American power.

John Bolton, in 1994, said about the UN:

“There is no such thing as the United Nations. There is an international community that occasionally can be led by the only real power left in the world and that is the United States when it suits our interest and we can get others to go along.'[1]

I think you could replace the UN with NATO and wouldn't lose much nuance. John Bolton, like Victoria Nuland and her husband Robert Kagan, have been determining foreign policy in American administrations for the last thirty years, from the collapse of the USSR to its resurgence as Putin's revanchist state. The published attitudes of Nuland, Kagan, and Bolton (not including hot mic moments like Nuland's "fuck the EU" tape) towards the EU, the UN, and NATO are almost, if not categorically hostile when it comes at the expense of American hegemony. It's also why the ICC has no real power in the West.

As far as Sweden and Finland go, yes, their flight into NATO's arms was catalyzed by Russia's invasion of Ukraine, yes, but this is also perfectly suited to the longterm geopolitical aims of the United States, whether it happened immediately, as it did, or if they were included in a future wave of NATO members. That's the nature of salami slicing tactics. You don't need to move fast, as your opponent doesn't have the capacity to ever stop you.

>Neither had any immediate plans to join before the war, but the bitter truth is that no neighbour of Russia is safe without an alliance providing a decisive military superiority.

I agree entirely! That bitter truth has been known to conservatives in the United States since 1945 and has been routinely mocked by unaligned Europeans and urbane liberals in the United States for decades, culminating in the peak irony in 2012 of Barack Obama making fun of Mitt Romney's claim that Russia was the biggest geopolitical threat to America's interest.[2]

[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=w0y2gYoqOnA

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0IWe11RWOM&t=8

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#195

If this was purely because of sanctions, this could have been handled much more gracefully. But it's clear from Linus' comments that he just doesn't respect these volunteers because they happen to be from a particular country. > I'm Finnish. ... Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too. If we're suddenly taking history as a criterion, half of the world should ban British develope…

Russia is unique in that they are both presently and historically a threat to the entire western world.

Russia is an Empire of Evil and Murder. Even Russian rulers hold their own people in contempt and have no use for them except as slaves. 800 years of their history proves it.

Junk away.

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very US centric take. NATO isn't expanding to increase US power over Russia. Independent, self-determined countries seek to join NATO to bolster their defense against the local aggressive neighbour. This should be very clear when you consider how NATO has expanded: not by US invitation to join them, but rather by Russian neighbours seeking an alliance to finally rid themselves of the threat. > Russia's resp…

I agree it is a US-centric take, but I disagree that the expansion of NATO is not principally about expanding American power. John Bolton, in 1994, said about the UN: “There is no such thing as the United Nations. There is an international community that occasionally can be led by the only real power left in the world and that is the United States when it suits our interest and we can get others to go along.'[1] I th…

All right, I don't dispute that a larger NATO is in US geopolitical interests. I just disagree with the framing that NATO is expanding vs. countries independently seeking to join.

It may sound like a minor difference, but that plays to the Russian narrative of US violating their sphere of influence. In this imperialistic worldview smaller countries have no agency and are just pawns of larger powers. This is at the core of the current war too -- Russia desperately trying to prevent Ukraine from following the path of westward alignment that it has independently chosen.

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#197
post #164
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia invaded it’s neighbor. These sanctions are one of the consequences. It sucks for the good-faith programmers in Russia but what would you have the rest of the world do? The Russian state must be sanctioned for its blatant disregard for international norms. Please don’t just respond with whataboutism. The whataboutism in these threads involves different people in different times. This is happening now.

When the word "whataboutism" is used, you know it's the one rejection of a valid argument or analogy that helps clarify the argument. The ones that can't deal with that coined the therm "whataboutism".

"Whataboutism" was originally a valid criticism of "tu-quoque" attacks.

Now it's frequently used as a defense for hypocrisy.

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#198
post #56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kaliningrad Oblast How is it relevant here?

I guess in the sense that Poland also borders Russia via Kaliningrad, and wasn't part of the USSR.

I’m aware of Konigsberg/Kaliningrad.

Was Poland occupied by Soviet troops for 49 years after WW II? Yes.

Was Finland occupied (at all) by Soviet troops after WW II? No.

Poland was a de facto SSR, Finland was not.

Re: Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted

#200
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, that one time CoC might be useful, and he decides to bring national gripe in and call everyone who disagrees with him a troll.

The lawyers brought the issue. He explained the issue ably to the public at large. I'm not in favor of fake niceness.

Sure, you’re paid trolls and I’m Finnish so Russians can fuck off in the first place is “explaining the issue ably to the public”.

However, this is less deranged than many of his frankly embarrassing public rants on other people’s code he didn’t like, I’ll give him that. Maybe that “ably” is relative.

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