Live data from Hacker News

Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

bloomberg.com

231–240 of 480 posts

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#231

Because of all the discussions in the comments about ARM and RISC-V, could someone explain to me the difficulties of designing a chip for a new ISA? I'm wondering because to me as a layman it sounds like it's 'only' a different language, so why is it not that easy to take already existing designs and modify them to 'speak' that language and that's it? Or is an ISA more than just a different 'language'? Or is hardware…

Designing a new clean and better ISA is easy. With the current existing experience that could be done in weeks or a few months at most, to allow for the simulation of how various variants run benchmarks, to determine the best variant.

Nevertheless, designing the ISA is the only easy part. Then you have to write high-quality compilers, assemblers, linkers, debuggers and various other tools, and also good documentation for the ISA and all the tools.

Developing such toolchains and convincing people to use them and educating them can take some years. Optimizing various libraries for which the performance is important for the new ISA can also take years.

These things are what the incumbent ISAs like Aarch64, RISC-V or POWER provide.

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#232
post #102

> If Arm follows through with the license termination, Qualcomm would be prevented from doing its own designs using Arm’s instruction set i'm not sure this is true. certainly "chip" IP has been a real legal quagmire since, forever. but it was my understanding that you could neither patent nor copyright simply an "instruction set". presumably what you get from ARM with an architecture license would be patent licenses…

Are there remaining patents relative to arm architecture that haven't expired already?

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#233
post #204

Most comments here seem to think that Qualcomm has to settle or switch to RISC-V. But from my understanding the article is only about their license to design custom chips with ARM IP, not about using ARM's designs. For example the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 uses 1 ARM Cortex-X2, 3 ARM Cortex-A710 and 4 ARM Cortex-A510, which are ARM designs. Their latest announced chip though, Snapdragon 8 Elite, uses 8 Oryon cores, which Qu…

They’re only losing their license to make custom cores. They’re still free to use ARMs own cores. The reason being that ARM gave Nuvia a license to design cores at a specific rate, then Qualcomm bought them to use those cores. ARM claims that the license to design cores does not have a transferable rate to it.

Now Qualcomm does not want to continue to use any Arm cores, both because their own cores are better and because that would save them the cost for royalties.

Obviously, Arm tries to prevent Qualcomm from using their own cores, because this time Arm would lose a major source of their revenue if Qualcomm stopped licensing cores.

When Arm has given architectural licenses to Qualcomm and Nuvia, they were not worried about competition, because Qualcomm could not design good cores, while Nuvia had no perspective of selling so many cores for this to matter.

The merging of Nuvia into Qualcomm has changed completely the possible effect of those architectural licenses, so Arm probably considers that giving them has been a big mistake and they now try to mend this by cancelling them, with the hope that they will convince justice that this is not illegal.

For any non-Arm employee or shareholder, it is preferable for Arm to lose, unless the reduction in revenue for Arm would be so great as to affect their ability to continue to design improved cores for other companies and for other applications, but that is unlikely.

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#234

Qualcomm is known for having a particularly aggressive & hardball-style legal department to enforce its patents on core telecom IP. I believe the most likely outcome is they just settle the dispute here. Arm fighting hardball with hardball. Which would not really affect the ecosystem of phones using Qualcomm arm chips, it would just change the margins / market cap of Qualcomm. Yes, longterm Q might invest in their ow…

Qualcomm should put a giant bid on SiFive tomorrow, to remind ARM that its not unassailable

They can design chips. What Qualcomm might not be able to do is deliver solid software support for their riscv64 hardware. Android decelerated their efforts toward support recently.

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#235

Qualcomm is known for having a particularly aggressive & hardball-style legal department to enforce its patents on core telecom IP. I believe the most likely outcome is they just settle the dispute here. Arm fighting hardball with hardball. Which would not really affect the ecosystem of phones using Qualcomm arm chips, it would just change the margins / market cap of Qualcomm. Yes, longterm Q might invest in their ow…

[flagged]

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#236
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing the ISA with the chip. Current RISC-V chips are slower than high performance ARM ones, but that's because you don't start by designing high performance chips! You start with small embedded cores and work your way up. Exactly the same thing happened with ARM. It started in embedded, then phones, and finally laptops and servers. ARM was never slow, they just hadn't worked up to highly complex high perf…

you don't start by designing high performance chips! You start with small embedded cores and work your way up. I disagree. For example, the first PowerPC was pretty fast and went into flagship products immediately. Itanium also went directly for the high end market (it failed for unrelated reasons). RISC-V would be much better off if some beastly chips like Rivos were released early on.

The high end requires specifications that were not available until RVA22 and Vector 1.0 were ratified. First chips implementing these are starting to show up as seen in e.g. MILK-V Jupiter, which is one of the newest development boards in the market.

With the ISA developed in the open, the base specs microcontrollers can target would naturally tend to be be ratified first, and thus microcontrollers would show up first. RVA22+V were ratified November 2021.

With the ISA developed inside working groups involving several parties, some slowness would be unavoidable, as they all need to agree on how to move forward. Thus the years of gap until RVA22+V from the time the privileged and unprivileged specs were ratified (2019).

RVA23 has just been ratified. This spec is on par with x86-64 and ARMv9, feature-wise. Yet hardware using it will of course in turn take years to appear as well.

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#237
post #52

Qualcomm is known for having a particularly aggressive & hardball-style legal department to enforce its patents on core telecom IP. I believe the most likely outcome is they just settle the dispute here. Arm fighting hardball with hardball. Which would not really affect the ecosystem of phones using Qualcomm arm chips, it would just change the margins / market cap of Qualcomm. Yes, longterm Q might invest in their ow…

Qualcomm doesn't have nearly as much to lose as ARM does and they know it. Qualcomm is almost certainly ARM's biggest customer. If ARM loses, Qualcomm doesn't have to pay out. If ARM wins, Qualcomm moves to RISC-V and ARM loses even harder in the long-term. The most likely outcome is that Qualcomm agrees to pay a slight bit more than they are currently paying, but nowhere near what ARM is demanding and in the meantim…

This is a bit off topic, but has anyone demonstrated it's possible to design a big RISC-V core, that's performance competitive with the fastest x86 and ARM designs?

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Qualcomm moves to RISC-V and ARM loses even harder in the long-term. I think long term is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. How long until: 1. Qualcomm develops a chip that competitive in performance to ARM 2. The entire software world is ready to recompile everything for RISC-V Unless you are Apple I see such a transition taking a decade easily.

> 1. Qualcomm develops a chip that competitive in performance to ARM Virtually all high performance processors these days operate on their own internal “instructions”. The instruction decoder at the very front of the pipeline that actually sees ARM or RISC-V or whatever is a relatively small piece of logic. If Qualcomm were motivated, I believe they could swap ISAs relatively easily on their flagship processors, and…

> Virtually all high performance processors these days operate on their own internal “instructions”. The instruction decoder at the very front of the pipeline that actually sees ARM or RISC-V or whatever is a relatively small piece of logic.

You're talking essentially about microcode; this has been the case for decades, and isn't some new development. However, as others have pointed out, it's not _as_ simple as just swapping out the decoder (especially if you've mixed up a lot of decode logic with the rest of the pipeline). That said, it's happened before and isn't _impossible_.

On a higher level, if you listen to Keller, he'll say that the ISA is not as interesting - it's just an interface. The more interesting things are the architecture, micro-architecture and as you say, the microcode.

It's possible to build a core with comparable performance - it'll vary a bit here and there, but it's not that much more difficult than building an ARM core for that matter. But it takes _years_ of development to build an out-of-order core (even an in-order takes a few years).

Currently, I'd say that in-order RISC-V cores have reached parity. Out of order is a work in progress at several companies and labs. But the chicken-and-egg issue here is that in-order RISC-V cores have ready-made markets (embedded, etc) and out of order ones (mostly used only in datacenters, desktop and mobile) are kind of locked in for the time being.

> Many Android apps don’t depend directly on “native” code, and those could potentially work on day 1.

That's actually true, but porting Android is a nightmare (not because it's hard, but because the documentation on it sucks). Work has started, so let's see.

> With an ARM emulation layer, those with a native dependency could likely start working too, although a native RISC-V port would improve performance.

I wonder what the percentage here is... Again, I don't think recompiling for a new target is necessarily the worst problem here.

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#239
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t Android binaries in Dalvik so you only need to port that to get it to run on RISC-V?

Many games, multimedia apps (native FFMPEG libs), and other apps that require native C/C++ libs would require a recompile/translation for RISC-V.

FFMPEG has a RISC-V port. We're yet to try it, but I did successfully compile it to target RISC-V vector extensions.

Re: Arm is canceling Qualcomm's chip design license

#240
What is often overlooked on this topic is, that ARM also has a duty to protect its ecosystem.

By using its dominant position in Smartphone chipsets, Qualcomm is in progress to establish a custom ARM-architecture as the new standard for several industries, fragmenting the ARM-ecosystem.

For decades, ARM is carefully avoiding this to happen, by allowing selected partners to "explore" evolutions of the IP in an industry but with rules and methods to make sure they can't diverge too much from ARM's instruction set.

Qualcomm acquired Nuvia and now executes the plan of using their restricted IP in a unrestricted fashion for several industries ("powering flagship smartphones, next-generation laptops, and digital cockpits, as well as Advanced Driver Assistance Systems, extended reality and infrastructure networking solutions").

ARM has designed architectures which achieve comparable performance to Nuvia's IP (Blackhawk, Cortex-X), but Qualcomm's assumption is that they don't need it and that they can apply Nuvia's IP on top of their existing architecture without the need of licensing any new ARM design.

Post reply on HN