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How DRAM changed the world

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Re: How DRAM changed the world

#31

Post by sundvor »

vbezhenar wrote: post #16
malfist wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that contrast with the increase cas latency in real world terms? (Actually asking, not being combative, I don't know)

Last time I checked, DDR5 and DDR4 latency was basically the same. Very little progress there. May be with integrating DRAM and CPU on the same package, some latency wins will be available just because wires will be shorter, but nothing groundbreaking.

My DDR4 was C16, but my DDR5 at C30 makes up for that with sheer speed.

Currently sporting this - G.Skill Trident Z5 Neo RGB Black 64GB (2x32GB) PC5-48000 (6000MHz) with a 7800x3d.

Previous kit was G.Skill Trident Z Neo RGB 32GB (2x16GB), PC4-28800 (3600MHz) DDR4, 16-16-16-36 [X2, eventually, for 64 total] with, you guessed it, the 5800x3d, from the 3900xt - my son loves it.

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#32

Post by tsobral »

CalRobert wrote: post #25
emptiestplace wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Going from 8MB to 32MB in the 90s is still comparable to going from 8GB to 32GB today. This statement makes it difficult to believe you were there.

How so?

It's simple, and for context I made both upgrades scenarios: 8gb -> 32gb: yeah, it feels a bit snappier, I can finally load multiple VMs and a ton of containers. Which rarely happens.. 8mb -> 32mb: Wow! I can finally play Age of Empires 2 and blue screen crashes dropped by half!

The feeling isn't the same even remotely...

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#33

Post by lightedman »

metta2uall wrote: post #9

"8K video recording" - does anyone really need this? Seems like for negligible gain in quality people are pushed to sacrifice their storage & battery, and so upgrade their hardware sooner...

I need more than 8K. I'm working at microscopic levels when I study minerals, I need as much resolution as I can possibly get, to the limit of optical diffraction.

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#34

Post by Dalewyn »

CalRobert wrote: post #25
emptiestplace wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Going from 8MB to 32MB in the 90s is still comparable to going from 8GB to 32GB today. This statement makes it difficult to believe you were there.

How so?

Going from an inflatable pool in your backyard to a community pool is world changing.

Going from the Pacific Ocean to the Seven Seas is still lots of water.

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#35

Post by smolder »

sundvor wrote: post #31
vbezhenar wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked, DDR5 and DDR4 latency was basically the same. Very little progress there. May be with integrating DRAM and CPU on the same package, some latency wins will be available just because wires will be shorter, but nothing groundbreaking.

My DDR4 was C16, but my DDR5 at C30 makes up for that with sheer speed. Currently sporting this - G.Skill Trident Z5 Neo RGB Black 64GB (2x32GB) PC5-48000 (6000MHz) with a 7800x3d. Previous kit was G.Skill Trident Z Neo RGB 32GB (2x16GB), PC4-28800 (3600MHz) DDR4, 16-16-16-36 [X2, eventually, for 64 total] with, you guessed it, the 5800x3d, from the 3900xt - my son loves it.

To reiterate the GPs point, in case anyone didn't get it: DDR4-3200 CL16 is equivalent to DDR5-6000 CL30 or DDR5-6400 CL32 in terms of latency. Divide the frequency by the CAS latency and you get the same number for all of those. It was the same situation going from DDR3 to 4. There's some wiggle room if you run above-spec voltages (and depending on the quality of the chips, etc.) but things have stayed roughly where they are latency-wise, gen-to-gen.

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#36

Post by tomnipotent »

gregmac wrote: post #13
neom wrote: post #3

I miss RAM. I feel like if you lived through that 90s RAM frenzy, you probably miss RAM too. It was crazy how quickly we move through SDRAM/DDR, prices dropped and you could make real increases in performance year over year for not much money. I'm sure some of it was the software being able to capture the hw improvements, but that certainly was my fav period in tech so far.

I am confused by this comment. You said "RAM" (contrast to "DRAM" in the article title) but I think you are talking about DRAM sticks? But those have not gone away (other than with some laptops where it's soldered on and not upgradable). Going from 8MB to 32MB in the 90s is still comparable to going from 8GB to 32GB today. One difference is just that the price isn't dropping at the same rate anymore [1], so it doesn'…

Most RAM found in consumer PC's during the 90s was still DRAM, including SDRAM, EDO, and Rambus. I believe OP is just being nostalgic over the period of time when RAM upgrades were very a exciting thing, as hardware was changing very quickly in that era and each year felt considerably more capable than the prior.

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#37

Post by Ekaros »

CalRobert wrote: post #25
emptiestplace wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Going from 8MB to 32MB in the 90s is still comparable to going from 8GB to 32GB today. This statement makes it difficult to believe you were there.

How so?

Resolutions for video might be good comparison. SD to HD(or 720p) is very nice jump. HD to 4k some benefit. 4k to 8k... Well I suppose there is things.

The starting to point really does matter.

Resolutions are actually good example of things at low end(today) scale. 1920x1080 * 24 bits = 6220800 bytes. So 6 megs. Just to store 16 million colour screen state.

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#38

Post by smolder »

vbezhenar wrote: post #16
malfist wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that contrast with the increase cas latency in real world terms? (Actually asking, not being combative, I don't know)

Last time I checked, DDR5 and DDR4 latency was basically the same. Very little progress there. May be with integrating DRAM and CPU on the same package, some latency wins will be available just because wires will be shorter, but nothing groundbreaking.

Yes, latency has stayed fairly constant going back at least as far as DDR3. It was nudged downward a little from DDR2 to 3, with higher clocks bringing finer grained timings, but I would say any improvement in later generations is pretty negligible in nanosecond terms.

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#39

Post by bgnn »

Salgat wrote: post #18
MichaelZuo wrote: post #2

Dennard scaling for SRAM has certainly halted, as demonstrated by TSMC’s 3nm process vs 5 nm. What’s the likely ETA for DRAM?

5nm can hold roughly a gigabyte of SRAM on a cpu-sized die, that's around $130/GB I believe. At some point 5nm will be cheap enough that we can start considering replacing DRAM with SRAM directly on the chip (aka L4 cache). I wonder how big of a latency and bandwidth bonus that'd be. You could even go for a larger node size without losing much capacity for half the price.

5nm will never be that cheap. The performance benefit would be easily 2x or more though.

Re: How DRAM changed the world

#40

Post by Gibbon1 »

phil21 wrote: post #26
CalRobert wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so?

8GB -> 32GB doesn't really give you a whole lot more than opening more browser tabs or whatnot. Cache some more filesystem into memory I suppose. 8MB -> 32MB enabled entirely new categories of (consumer-level) software. It would be a game changer for performance as you were no longer swapping to (exceedingly slow) disk. They simply are not comparable, imo. 8MB to 32MB was night and day difference and you would drool…

Going from 4MB to 16MB made Autocad and Orcad Capture under Win 3.1 no longer slow.

I remember a few years before that you'd zoom in on a drawing and do as much as you could without zooming back out because it would take a full minute to redraw the screen. And then another minute to zoom back in somewhere else.

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