#BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban • Hacker News Board

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#361

Post by vidarh » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 2:37 PM UTC

its_so_on wrote: post #232

koide wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that a country as a whole is relatively non corrupt doesn't say anything about specific people and their corruptibility. Also, the U.S.A. is number 24 of around 180 countries on the Corruption Perceptions Index and appears below countries such as Bahamas, Chile or Qatar.

I mean that it's unheard-of for judges to be literally bribed as this implies. This guy is posting his research digging things up - a very interesting read: if he had found anything! But he didn't. The steps he took are worthless and don't deserve so much as a mention. This would be like me googling your username and some illegal activity, finding that I couldn't find your username on any forums dedicated to that ill…

> I mean that it's unheard-of for judges to be literally bribed as this implies.

Not really. It may be unusual, but unheard of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#362

Post by vidarh » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 2:54 PM UTC

X-Istence wrote: post #89

jclulow wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think suggesting that nobody is hurt by ridiculous injunctions like this is a bit disingenuous. Firstly, consumers are denied the chance to purchase a product that exists; it's been made! It's ready to ship! Sure, you might not want one, but it's certainly possible that other people do. Something else an injuction does is robs a manufacturer of any time-to-market advantage that they may have had releasing the produ…

If consumers want the device they can simply purchase an Apple device. If Google did indeed violate the patents in question the features the user want are available in Apple's products. You mention first-mover advantage ... that is exactly what patents are supposed to grant, you invent something cool, you get a patent on it, and then YOU get exclusivity on that invention for X years so you can recoup your costs of R&…

The Apple products don't meet my needs, due to their restrictions. Some Android devices do. For a lot of users, the features the users want will not be available in either product if Apple has it the way they want.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#363

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:10 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #354

mkr-hn wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like that usually come after a long, dumb tree that started out with good intentions. It happens on HN too. The difference is that I can collapse those threads on Reddit, or hide the story completely.

Collapsible comments on HN would be awesome. Too often I get deep into a huge comment thread that has gone off topic and close the tab after I lose interest and forget what the topic was supposed to be about.

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Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#364

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:48 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #356

freehunter wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collapsible comments on HN would be awesome. Too often I get deep into a huge comment thread that has gone off topic and close the tab after I lose interest and forget what the topic was supposed to be about.

The resistance to it probably comes from the belief that it would hasten HN's decline. Once you can collapse subthreads, what's the motivation to not contribute to the subthreads? But Reddit at levels 1-5 is almost indistinguishable from HN at levels 1-5. The only differences between HN and Reddit are topic diversity, collapsing, and limiting comment display to the top 100 or 500 comments. That has me using HN less i…

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Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#365

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 6:58 PM UTC

shmerl wrote: post #297

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems your from USA; I'll assume you mean the US patent system, and I gather that in the USA you elect judges but do you think that the courts should be "fixing" the law. Do you elect the judiciary to alter the law? Unbiased application of the law seems much more becoming of a judicial system than rewriting of it. If you have your judiciary do the statute [re]writing then do you want your government doing that too…

Courts don't create laws, they interpret and apply them. Laws are created by the legislative power (i.e. congress). Courts is the judicial power. I.e. to fix this mess, legislative power needs to reform the patent law. Here is a proposal: https://defendinnovation.org

You said that the patent system was broken and asked "do you think courts can fix it" (my emphasis). I know that in general legislative power is not within the remit of the court (you might say it was ex judica, fnar-fnar) - you appeared to be saying that the courts should be fixing it though, hence my post.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#366

Post by cooldeal » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 7:56 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #262

cooldeal wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If something needs long winded comments, I am skeptical. For example, did HTC do something to litigate with Apple that caused Apple to sue HTC? I don't see anything like that. If you assert that Apple sued HTC because Nokia sued Apple first, that does not make any sense whatsoever. Nokia isn't even an Android OEM.

If someone refuses to accept the need for a nuanced response, I am skeptical of their opinion.

Still waiting for this so-called nuanced response.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#367

Post by shmerl » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 7:56 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #365

shmerl wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Courts don't create laws, they interpret and apply them. Laws are created by the legislative power (i.e. congress). Courts is the judicial power. I.e. to fix this mess, legislative power needs to reform the patent law. Here is a proposal: https://defendinnovation.org

You said that the patent system was broken and asked "do you think courts can fix it" (my emphasis). I know that in general legislative power is not within the remit of the court (you might say it was ex judica, fnar-fnar) - you appeared to be saying that the courts should be fixing it though, hence my post.

I was asking, commenting on what jaebrown said earlier, quote:

this is business and we people should just let it play itself out in court.

So I asked: do you think courts (alone) can fix it? I.e. really courts won't help, until the law is fixed.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#368

Post by akldfgj » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 9:28 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #100

jrockway wrote: post #62

This is really a non-issue. Tech companies sue each other and get import bans all the time. The victim eventually moves some UI widget three pixels to the right and the import ban is lifted and life moves on. The only real consequence of all this is that lawyers on both sides make a lot of money. Google is not going to stop making Android and Apple is not going to stop making iOS. Both will just advance more slowly b…

I think your last sentence shows exactly why it's not a non-issue as you claim in your first sentence. This nonsense is a drag on the entire economy. Lawyers working on this issue is the equivalent of Keynes' digging holes and filling them up again statement. It's what makes Keynesianism so short sighted.

For anyone, like fauigerzigerk, who doesn't know what Keynesianism is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

Monetary stimulation buy the government or any entity that creates money is different from transferring money for unproductive uses.

Keynes point was that giving out money stimulates economic activity, dis-idling hands. The hole-digging argument was that, while handing out money for productive activity is best (it has two benefits: immediate production of value, plus money that stimulates trade), even handing out money for non-productive activity is still valuable for the stimulating effects.

The reason is that I have bananas you want, and you have oranges someone else wants, and someone else has dirt nobody wants, if the government prints money to buy the dirt guy's dirt, and the dirt guy buys oranges, and the orange guy buys bananas, and the banana guy has some money waiting for someone to make something he wants (maybe the dirt guy will make a cool cartoon about oranges), that is better in REAL terms than a pile of rotten bananas and oranges and dirt and nobody getting anything they want at all.

Even though the dirt guy got paid for worthless work, real wealth was created by better allocating resources.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#369

Post by Terretta » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 10:35 PM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #247

CrazedGeek wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to a specific case? From what I can tell, the first two major cases were Nokia v. Apple and Apple v. HTC, in October 2009 and March 2010, respectively (and Nokia's not really part of the current kerfuffle of suits).

Months ago I outlined the history with cases here in long comments. I'll look it up again and comment here later today or tomorrow.

Using HN Search, I found one of the comments (there are others with contemporary who's suing who diagrams, but haven't found them yet):

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1166321

Over two years ago, I argued that patent suits were how the licensing game was played among the existing players. It was considered an everyday cost of doing business by the incumbents, but Apple wasn't well prepared for this. (They've learned fast.)

This wasn't on consumers' radar because none of the fights were as interesting as the juggernauts of Apple v. Android which get framed in almost religious terms and taken personally by users who have chosen a camp.

The argument then was that Apple had not been actively litgating patents, but when Nokia (faced with dwindling profits, most of which appeared to be landing in Apple's pockets) started the fight, and Kodak piled on, Apple had to demonstrate that the patents it was using to counter these suits were patents that it was actively defending.

This pushed Apple to file against HTC, and eventually against others who, again, had all been actively (but boringly) suing one another before Apple got to the table.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#370

Post by 0xABADC0DA » Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 12:02 AM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #307

0xABADC0DA wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple Legal is at odds with Apple Engineering, trying to litigate away the competition instead of innovating past them I don't even... what do you expect Apple Legal to innovate? "Accept EULA to unlock?" They aren't at odds with engineering any more than having a good defense is at odds with having a good offense. Have you used an up-to-date android phone in the last 6 months? Perhaps even gotten to play with an Nexu…

> I don't even... what do you expect Apple Legal to innovate? Apple Engineering creates great products. Apple Legal pays private security firms and complicit local officials to storm journalist's houses. Apple Engineering is trying to create a reputation as a great place to work, Apple Legal is scaring away engineers left and right. Apple Legal plays dirty, Apple Engineering and Design talk about the nobility of grea…

I'm not sure how Apple hasn't been rewarded for their efforts. What more, exactly, do they need ... We've had years of Apple sitting on an epic pile of money

What you are doing is looking at the success story and saying 'they already made 100x on their investment that should be enough!' but neglecting to consider the chance of failure. We don't have patents so that Apple can make 150x times their investment instead of 100x, we have them so that companies looking at 150:1 odds instead of 100:1 will try to make those big changes in the first place.

Do they also get to make spurious patent claims left and right now

Absolutely Apple should continue to get advantages over non-innovating competitors even though Apple already has gobs of money.