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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#941
post #938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're designed to isolate and control everyone outside of them in order to keep the children inside safe? That is certainly an opinion.

That's not at all what i meant, but it doesn't matter.

I'm genuinely curious what you meant! I can totally understand those who say schools are like prisons. I've never encountered the inversion of that idea.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not in cheating or grades, etc. Spam filters are completely different from this.

> But not in cheating or grades, etc. Spam filters are completely different from this. Really? A spammer is trying to ace a test where my attention is the prize. I don't really see a huge difference between a student/diploma and a spammer/my attention. Education tech companies have been playing with ML and similar tech that is "AI adjacent" for decades. If you went to school in the US any time after computers entered…

> I don't really see a huge difference between a student/diploma and a spammer/my attention.

You don't see a difference between potentially ruining a students future due to grading done by an opaque ai system and you clicking on a spam email? That's preposterous.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#943

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the problem is not the cheating, per se. The problem is the lack of learning the material. You don't, IMO, directly care how they produced the answer, you care about it only as a proxy for them learning the material well enough to solve the problem. And making people do them in person with no technology is unrealistic - not because it can't be done, but because at that point, it's not a reflection of how yo…

You don't, IMO, directly care how they produced the answer, you care about it only as a proxy for them learning the material well enough to solve the problem. I don’t care about the answer. I care about the thought process that went into finding the answer. The answer is irrelevant. And making people do them in person with no technology is unrealistic - not because it can't be done, but because at that point, it's no…

I absolutely agree there's a minimum baseline you need, but my argument is more that I feel like, from my experiences in academia, a lot of it, particularly in intro courses, is often focused around verbatim memorization as a proxy for knowing how to use the rote memorized thing, and while I've always been quite good at rote memorization, other people often are not, and get filtered by those classes.

e.g. I saw several intro CS courses filter people who couldn't write Java or C code cold with precisely correct syntax, and baseline physics classes filter people who couldn't keep a bunch of identities memorized well, when I claim that neither of those is directly useful as a skill in most circumstances, or necessary in the problem domain.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#944

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One classic approach is to over-hire and weed out. I find some form of this de-facto happens anyway, so managing more explicitly has some benefits.

It also would be great if a person doing the interview could take the rest of the day off rather than jumping on a quick call with no time/interest to really try and understand the person on the other side of the desk. At the moment in most (all?) big companies an interview is something that noone wants to commit to and and when they have to - you understand the effort, dedication and focus that goes into it - that's…

I don't take the day off, but I spend at least an hour per candidate reviewing their work and preparing for the interview.

This is normal and expected at Google at least.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Little Johnny who tried really hard but still can barely write a for loop doesn't deserve a place in a comp sci course ahead of little Timmy who for some reason thinks in computer code. Timmy might be a lazy arse but he's good at what he does and for minimal effort the outcomes are amazing. Johnny unfortunately just doesn't get it. He's wanted to be a programmer ever since he saw the movie Hackers but his brain just…

My evaluation: 1. Whoever determined that he does not “deserve” this is wrong. There may be other constraints, but no one gets to frame it as “deserves” when a child wants to learn something. 2. If a teacher is unable to teach Johnny to write a for loop, despite Johnny’s genuine utmost motivation , I would question teacher’s competence or at least fit. 3. Like any mentor, a professor in higher ed may want to choose w…

> If a teacher is unable to teach Johnny to write a for loop, despite Johnny’s genuine utmost motivation, I would question teacher’s competence or at least fit.

This relies on everyone's ability to learn being determined solely by motivation rather than innate ability. As someone who has tutored both deprived children and the very bright I can say this unfortunately isn't true, even though the world would be a better place if it was.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#946

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so how is it that USSR made this work?

Soviet professors were poor, so it was easy to bribe them to get passing grade. To weed out bribers, some trickery was used by state, so bribers can pay for few years or cheat on tests and then fail an exam anyway. In my class, 36 enrolled, 11 graduated. Later, people learned that and started to buy diploma: faster, cheaper, no risk of failing the final exam.

my advisor was at Kurchatov and MEPhI in 1989 and I never heard anything about this from him

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#947
post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> get more value If actually learning is valuable to them, independent of whether it will actually help them with prospective employers, then yes. But I don't think we can assume that all students value that.

I’m thinking about the long term here. I don’t care about grades, I think they’re a poor signal. What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. Some did, some didn’t, and I can tell the difference.

> What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals.

For professional engineers, at least, the degree is not what tells you whether they have learned the fundamentals. The license is.

Even for engineers in domains where there is no licensing (such as software, for example), I would expect them to have learned the fundamentals on the job, not in college. I think most employers expect the same; they don't view the college degree as a signal that the prospective employee knows the fundamentals, they expect them to learn that on the job. What the degree signals to the employer is that the prospective employee will comply with their corporate process.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#948

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

Face to face, proctored and standardised exams are, indeed, pretty much the only way most of the rest of world allows kids _into_ university. One thing I was reasonably certain of at my university is everyone _arriving_ at it to study maths knew how to differentiate and integrate a polynomial.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#949

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in an elderly home may be impossible, too[1], meaning at best you can stay at the hospital until you die (which doctors are eager to achieve), at least in Hungary. There is a sad, depressing world out there. One of my parents work at an elderly home, and the shit that happens there is just wild. Zero responsibility and accountability. Deliberate killing of people out of pure inconvenience, etc. I am in favor o…

Oh yes, I've heard my fair share of horror stories from elderly homes. I would like to say I'm glad they exist for those who have no other option, but even in the most expensive places I've personally seen its just no way to live in my opinion.

I agree, and it is terrifying that I may be paralyzed due to my chronic illness and end up rotting away on a hospital bed with nurses and doctors perceiving me as an inconvenience.

I wish euthanasia was legal here.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#950

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something is technically legal, doesn't mean it's in any way common or part of UK culture to own a gun. There hasn't been a school shooting in the UK for nearly 30 years. Handguns were banned after the last school shooting and there hasn't been one since. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:School_shootings_in_t... Although that fact is sometimes forgotten by schools who copy the US in having "active…

let us ban knives then... got a license for that mate?

It would be a miracle if the US experienced mass shootings at the rate the UK experiences mass stabbings.
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