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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#611

Post by lumost »

skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy.

As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating.

As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted (the hard classes) and not cheating (as I did what I wanted) - I can say that there are consequences to this approach.

In my opinion, the solution is to reduce the reliance on assessments which are prone to cheating or which in the real world would be done by computer.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#612

Post by ta1243 »

junaru wrote: post #351
lm28469 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France my essays were written in class, no phones, no book, just your brain, a sheet a paper and a pen. That's still 100% doable today

It even came with handwriting built in as authentication mechanism! AI detectors hate this secret! On a more serious note - US removed cursive from their curriculum almost two decades ago - something i cant wrap my head around as cursive is something the rest of the world(?) uses starting in middle school and onwards through the whole adult life.

Sorry but nobody uses "cursive" writing. People barely write once they leave education - they type. When they do write it's legible separate characters or it's unreadable scrawl.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#613

Post by aniviacat »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #544
bonoboTP wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. In Germany, all exams are like this. Homework assignments are either just a prerequisite for taking exam but the grade is solely from the exam, or you may get some small point bonus for assignments/projects. > But any teacher doing this will end up with no students signing up for…

> The main courses are mandatory in order to obtain the degree. You can't "not sign up" for linear algebra if it's in your curriculum. The course might be mandatory but which professor you choose isn't. What if multiple professors teach it? Word gets around and everyone chooses the easy profs.

I studied for a popular degree at one of the largest universities in Germany. I never had a course be taught by multiple professors. If a course had many attendants, the room just got bigger.

But that's just my personal experience. I don't know if it's different at other large universities.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#614

Post by consteval »

jenscow wrote: post #261
dambi0 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An essay written under examination conditions is fine. We don’t need new assessment techniques. We have known how to asses that a student and that student alone for centuries.

In most cases that only tests a students memory and handwriting ability, while under pressure in a limited time. Can't perform any research, compare conflicting sources, or self-reflection.

You can do all those things, just in less time. Which is a different skill set I admit.

But, for example, high school AP English exam is 3 45 minute essays (plus multiple choice). You have the read the passages, compare/contrast, etc.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#615

Post by skhunted »

lumost wrote: post #611
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

I think grading is obsolete. Grade inflation increased a lot the past 30 years. Ironically, it has increased the least at the least prestigious colleges. Pass/fail is the way to go. Don’t know if this would mess up things like applying for graduate school or jobs but let’s end the farce that grading has become.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#616

Post by sevensor »

ericjmorey wrote: post #562
pdonis wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the signaling value of college degrees as indicating knowledge I'm not sure knowledge is what a college degree signals to prospective employers. The alternative hypothesis, which AFAIK has a fair bit of support, is that it signals a willingness to do whatever it takes to fulfill a set of on paper requirements imposed by an institution, by hook or by crook.

I think you have a clearer understanding of the signalling that colleges have been providing for centuries than others who have been sold the lies that have been perpetuated by school administrators and those trying to justify their social advantages to those that didn't have similar advantages.

In a weird paradox, students who believe the lie and actually study to learn the material get more value from their education.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#617

Post by zahlman »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #555

I don't understand most of the comments here. I couldn't cheat in high school because we couldn't use our phones during class. Not for worksheets nor quizzes and especially not exams whether they be multiple choice, oral, or essays. Yet the top threads here act like we need a whole refactor of schooling, many people suggesting we rely on viva voce exams and proctored exams. What exactly do you think that's solving ov…

>many people suggesting we rely on... proctored exams. What exactly do you think that's solving over a... test where the teacher ensures people aren't on their phones?

That's what proctoring is.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#618

Post by schnable »

skhunted wrote: post #587
schnable wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is because universities are paid from tax money in Germany and most of Europe. Almost every university in the US takes federal money and relies on federal loan guarantees to keep the high revenues pumping through. In exchange, the schools are subject to requirements by the government and they impose many. I think the bigger issue is the size and scope of higher ed here and if it's actually a good idea to to te…

Around 50% of higher education in the United States is done at community colleges. Tuition accounts for 2/3 of our budget. State subsidy for 1/3. In the past the numbers were reversed. Enrollment in higher education went through a decade long decline. It is now the case that colleges are chasing tuition dollars. Students are the client.

Ok, but as long as the institution is taking public money, the government can impose rules and regulations on the school.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#619

Post by lynndotpy »

arnaudsm wrote: post #594
hombre_fatal wrote: post #555

I don't understand most of the comments here. I couldn't cheat in high school because we couldn't use our phones during class. Not for worksheets nor quizzes and especially not exams whether they be multiple choice, oral, or essays. Yet the top threads here act like we need a whole refactor of schooling, many people suggesting we rely on viva voce exams and proctored exams. What exactly do you think that's solving ov…

I've seen hundred of college students successfully cheat with mobile phones in class.

As a TA, I've seen graduate students succeed with answers blatantly copied from the internet (i.e. screenshots of the answer, rote copied answers, etc), and then I was asked to make a calculation to make sure the points reduction would not impact their final grade.

This was before generative AI became so commonplace, and I got the impression this is super common place. It was a really disillusioning moment for me.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#620

Post by samatman »

lumost wrote: post #611
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

Disagree on the order, unless the next institution is also an educational one, which for undergraduates is mostly not the case.

If it's a job, the order will be school, school, major, everything else on the résumé, grades maybe.

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