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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#581

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

They dumbed down college degrees so that everyone can get one. What did you expect? Can't do that without lowering standards.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#582

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

> Students are not used to doing the necessary work to learn. They are used to doing the necessary work to pass.

This is because 100-200 level math courses are not about teaching anything, but about filtering out students who can't do the work. Once you get past that level students have already formed bad habits and so still only do what it takes to pass. I don't know how to fix it, I don't know if it CAN be fixed.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#583

Let's talk about the actual one page extract of her essay, which can be seen in the article, it is the second image. My take is, if she used AI to generate that, she didn't use a very good one. I don't think ChatGPT would make the grammar and clarity mistakes that you see in the image text. I see this: "should be exposed to many of these forms and models to strengthen understanding" - much better as "should be expose…

Honestly I think you could set AI entirely to the side here, it seems increasingly a cultural meme (and an unfortunately accurate one) that kids can't read or write. And not just on social media either, I've seen this crop up in official training and my professional experience matches it too. The vast majority of people in the United States just write really, really poorly, and the average reading level sits at an ut…

> I don't wanna trot out "think of the children" bullshit here but it's hard for me to not notice that this trend has been happening since smartphones became normal and schools have increasingly become utterly toothless with regard to enforcing standards in education, i.e. "you need to know this shit in order to move to the next grade up." Nobody does that anymore. Just fudge the scores with extra credit or make-up assignments and send them up the chain to be a different teacher's problem next year.

I agree in general that we need to have higher standards but that complaint predates smartphones by decades. One of the big challenges here is that consistency was all over the place historically but we have better measurements now and higher expectations for students, and some of the cases where students were allowed to slide were misguided but well-intended attempts to mitigate other problems – for example, many standardized tests had issues with testing things like social norms or English fluency more then subject matter literacy so there’s a temptation to make them less binding when it should be paired with things like improving tests or providing ESP classes so, say, a recent immigrant’s math score isn’t held down by their ability to read story problems.

One other thing I’d keep in mind is that this is heavily politicized and there are massive business conflicts of interest, so it’s important to remember that the situation is not as dire as some people would have you believe. For example, PISA math scores are used to claim Americans are way behind but that’s heavily skewed by socioeconomic status and tracking in some other countries – when you start adjusting for that, the story becomes less that American students as a whole are behind but rather that our affluent kids are okay but we need to better support poor kids.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#584

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

> They are used to doing the necessary work to pass

The same for job interviews. I did a lot of technical interviews in the past as interviewer (hundreds) for Software Engineer positions (and still help companies to hire sometimes, as independent interviewer).

There is insane amount of cheating. I'd say at least 30% in normal companies are cheaters, and 50% and more in FAANG. I can prove it, in private groups, and forums people share tech assignments. And very large number of these people use some kind of assistance while interviewing.

It's interesting to see how sometimes questions that are intentionally sophisticated are getting solved in a few minutes the best way they can be solved. I see this over and over.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#585

The LLMs de-value the viability of homework, and assignments consisting of at-home busywork. As an alternative, teachers will have to put more emphasis on proctored exams. I say good riddance, that's exactly how it should be. At-home busywork is a scourge on especially K-12 students. Yet, every teacher has been loading their students up with homework, because that's their idea of what a "good teacher" is supposed to…

If this forces lower student-teacher ratios, even better

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#586

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

> They are used to doing the necessary work to pass The same for job interviews. I did a lot of technical interviews in the past as interviewer (hundreds) for Software Engineer positions (and still help companies to hire sometimes, as independent interviewer). There is insane amount of cheating. I'd say at least 30% in normal companies are cheaters, and 50% and more in FAANG. I can prove it, in private groups, and fo…

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. In Germany, all exams are like this. Homework assignments are either just a prerequisite for taking exam but the grade is solely from the exam, or you may get some small point bonus for assignments/projects. > But any teacher doing this will end up with no students signing up for…

> This is because universities are paid from tax money in Germany and most of Europe. Almost every university in the US takes federal money and relies on federal loan guarantees to keep the high revenues pumping through. In exchange, the schools are subject to requirements by the government and they impose many. I think the bigger issue is the size and scope of higher ed here and if it's actually a good idea to to te…

Around 50% of higher education in the United States is done at community colleges. Tuition accounts for 2/3 of our budget. State subsidy for 1/3. In the past the numbers were reversed. Enrollment in higher education went through a decade long decline. It is now the case that colleges are chasing tuition dollars. Students are the client.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41882421 My comment from a few days ago. The origin was a conversation with a girl who said she'd been pulled into a professor's office and told she was going to be reported to whatever her university's equivalent of Student Conduct and Academic Integrity is over using AI - a matter of academic honesty. The professor made it clear in the syllabus that "no AI" was allowed to be use…

In my opinion, it strongly depends on what Grammarly is being used for. For a physics paper, that's not a huge problem. For an English writing assignment, that's cheating. Banning AI tools like Grammarly for both is probably the best solution as your physics paper now becomes an extra training exercise for your English paper. Writing essays isn't just about your ideas. It's also a tool to teach communication skills.…

Say the same thing for automated spell check or the little blue grammar highlight built in to Google Docs and I'll buy it.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such as? We need an answer now because students are being assessed now. Two decades ago, when I was in engineering school, grades were 90% based on in-person, proctored, handwritten exams. So assignments had enough weight to be worth completing, but little enough that if someone cheated, it didn't really matter as the exam was the deciding factor. > Return to the old "viva voce" exam? Still used for PhDs. But that…

Interestingly, in the UK strong student preferences against proctored exams and nervousness about how mental health issues interact with exams means universities are resisting dropping coursework, despite everyone knowing that most coursework is ai generated.

I think this varies dramatically from subject to subject. CS students at my university probably had overall 70% weighting on invigilated exams, but classics or business students probably had only 20% weighting and far fewer exams.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, there's no such choice. There are no competing alternative courses that can substitute for each other, the very thought seems rather strange. There is one Linear Algebra course. You have to pass it to get your degree. Typically, it's taught by the same prof for many years, but it might also rotate between different chairs and profs (but only one in each semester and the "design" and requirements of the co…

It seems more strange in my opinion that you'd never have a course thats popular enough that more than one teacher holds sessions for it. You don't have the choice to not take the class, you just have choice with which professor you would like to take it with. And often you would have to get lucky anyway, since that session may be filled so you'd have to take it with the "harder" teacher anyway. For example with the…

Why would you do that? It doubles the workload for the faculty and gains.. nothing? That's the whole point of a lecture: You have one person teaching many. Beyond very small lectures (Especially something like Linear Algebra can easily have class sizes of 800+ people at big universities. Yes there is typically exactly one lecture hall for that and you have 30+ exercise groups. But still only one faculty
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