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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#241

Post by ben_w »

llmthrow102 wrote: post #186
thih9 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it is not obvious. I work with junior level devs and have seen a lot of non-AI junior level code.

You mean, you work with devs who are using AI to generate their code.

Not saying where, but well before transformers were invented, I saw an iOS project that had huge chunks of uncompiled Symbian code in the project "for reference", an entire pantheon of God classes, entire files duplicated rather than changing access modifiers, 1000 lines inside an always true if block, and 20% of the 120,000 lines were:

//

And no, those were not generally followed by a real comment.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#242

Post by bigstrat2003 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #195
add-sub-mul-div wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine how little common knowledge there will be one or two generations down the road after people decide they no longer need general thinking skills, just as they've already decided calculators free them from having to care about arithmetic skills.

And yet, this fear is timeless; back when book printing was big, people were fearmongering that people would no longer memorize things but rely too much on books. But in hindsight it ended up becoming a force multiplier. I mean I'm skeptical about AI as well and don't like it, but I can see it becoming a force multiplier itself.

> people were fearmongering that people would no longer memorize things but rely too much on books...

Posters here love to bring out this argument, but I think a major weakness is that those people wound up being right. People don't memorize things any more! I don't think it's fair to hold out as an example of fears which didn't come to pass, as they very much did come to pass.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#243

Post by teekert »

FWIW, I'm a consultant for a large University hospital, and Dutch. My PhD thesis, years ago, got the remark: "Should have checked with a native speaker."

So, now I use ChatGPT to check my English. I just write what I want to write than ask it to make my text more "More concise, business-like and not so American" (yeah the thing is by default as ultra enthusiastic as an American waiter). And 9 out of 10 times it says what I want to say but better than I wrote myself, and in much less words and better English.

I don't think it took less time to write my report, but it is much much better than I could have made alone.

AI detector may go off (or it goes on? of is it of? Idk, perhaps I should ask Chat ;)), but it is about as useful as a spell-check detector.

It's a Large Language Model, you should just is like that, it is not a Large Fact Model. But if you're a teacher you should be a good bullshit detector, right?

If I'm every checking some student's report, you may get this feedback: For god's sake, check the language with ChatGPT, but for God's sake check the fact in some other way.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#244

Post by closewith »

briandear wrote: post #191
immibis wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

“Regularly” is not a particularly accurate word. 50 million K12 students in the U.S. — how many mass murders are “regular?”

I wonder if you realise how much of a dystopian nightmare you have to be living in to write a comment like this and consider it reasonable.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#245

Post by ClumsyPilot »

yallpendantools wrote: post #51
OptionOfT wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That overall would be the right thing. Homework is such a weird concept when you think about it. Especially if you get graded on the correctness. There is no step between the teacher explaining and you validating whether you understood the material. Teacher explains material, you get homework about the material and are graded on it. It shouldn't be like that. If the work (i.e. the exercises) are important to grasp th…

> If the work (i.e. the exercises) are important to grasp the material, they should be done in class. I'd like to offer what I've come to realize about the concept of homework. There are two main benefits to it: [1] it could help drill in what you learned during the lecture and [2] it could be the "boring" prep work that would allow teachers to deliver maximum value in the classroom experience. Learning simply can't…

> you don't want him having to pace you through conditioning exercises---that would be a waste of his expertise

I fundamentally disagree - I vividly remember, many times during homework in maths for example, I realised that I am stuck and so don’t understand something explained earlier, and I need to ask someone. For me, my parents were able to help. But later in Highschool, when you get to differential equations - they no longer can. And obviously if your parents are poorly educated they can’t rather.

Second point, there is no feedback loop this way - a teacher should see how difficult is his homework, how much time students spend on it, and why they are struggling. Marking a piece of paper does not do it. There was wild inconsistency between teachers for how much homework they would set and how long they thought it would take students.

Lastly, the school + homework should be able to accommodate tag the required learning within 1 working day. It is anyway a form of childcare while parents work

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#246

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

sersi wrote: post #218
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize that the level of effort for oral exam is greater for both parties involved. However, the fact it does not scale is largely irrelevant in my view. Either it evaluates something well or it does not. And, since use of AI makes written exams almost impossible, this genuinely seems to be the only real test left.

> And, since use of AI makes written exams almost impossible Isn't it easy to prevent students from using an AI if they are doing the exams in a big room? I mean when I was a student, most of my exams were written with just access to notes but no computers. Not that much resources needed to control that...

Good point. I agree, but it goes back to some level of unwillingness to do this the 'old way'.

That is not say there won't be cheaters ( they always are ), but that is what proctor is for. And no, I absolutely hated the online proctor version. I swore I will never touch that thing again. And this may be the answer, people need to exercise their free will a little more forcefully.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#247

Post by nottorp »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #155

I'd expect smart people to be able to use tools to make their work easier. Including AI. The bigger picture here is that the current generation of students are going to be using and relying on AI the rest of their careers anyway. Making them do things the old fashioned way is not a productive way to educate them. The availability of these tools is actually an opportunity to raise the ambition level quite a bit. Unive…

The problem is, you sound like you were educated without relying on "AI". Thus you know enough that you can use a LLM as a tool.

There are studies showing up already that students educated with LLMs end up retaining nothing.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#248

Post by foldr »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #231
AStonesThrow wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It appears you think that giving women the same opportunities as men is a bad thing.

AStonesThrow has, err, strong opinions on this kind of thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41885547

I would question the utility of engaging.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#249

Post by TrackerFF »

gradus_ad wrote: post #12

Seems like the easy fix here is move all evaluation in-class. Are schools really that reliant on internet/computer based assignments? Actually, this could be a great opportunity to dial back unnecessary and wasteful edu-tech creep.

That's a non-starter for most schools.

There are more students than ever, and lots of schools now offer remote programs, or just remote options in general for students, to accommodate for the increased demand.

There's little political will to revert to the old ways, as it would drive up the costs. You need more space and you need more workers.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#250

Post by razakel »

sersi wrote: post #228
mrweasel wrote: post #184

The part that annoys me is that students apparently have no right to be told why the AI flagged their work. For any process where an computer is allowed to judge people, where should be a rule in place that demands that the algorithm be able explains EXACTLY why it flagged this person. Now this would effectively kill off the current AI powered solution, because they have no way of explaining, or even understanding, w…

It's a similar problem to people being banned from Google (insert big company name) because of an automated fraud detection system that doesn't give any reason behind the ban. I also thing that there should be laws requiring a clear explanation whenever that happens.

What about tipping off? Banks can't tell you that they've closed your account because of fraud or money laundering.
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