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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#221

Post by ben_w »

sumo89 wrote: post #188
greatartiste wrote: post #111

For a human who deals with student work or reads job applications spotting AI generated work quickly becomes trivially easy. Text seems to use the same general framework (although words are swapped around) also we see what I call 'word of the week' where whichever 'AI' engine seems to get hung up on a particular English word which is often an unusual one and uses it at every opportunity. It isn't long before you real…

My other half is a non-native English speaker. She's fluent but and since ChatGPT came out she's found it very helpful having somewhere to paste a paragraph and get a better version back rather than asking me to rewrite things. That said, she'll often message me with some text and I've got a 100% hit rate for guessing if she's put it through AI first. Once you're used to how they structure sentences it's very easy to…

My partner and I are both native English speakers in Germany; if I use ChatGPT to make a sentence in German, he also spots it 100% of the time.

(Makes me worry I'm not paying enough attention, that I can't).

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#222

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

throwaway290 wrote: post #149
hnlmorg wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you then plagiarising if the LLM is just regurgitating stuff you’d personally written? The point of these detectors is to spot stuff the students didn’t research and write themselves. But if the corpus is your own written material then you’ve already done the work yourself.

LLM is just regurgitating stuff as a principle. You can request someone else's style. People who are easy to detect simply don't do that. But they will learn quickly

Yep, some with fun results. I occasionally amuse myself now by asking for X in the style of writing of fictional figure Y. It does have moments.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#223

Post by Veen »

greatartiste wrote: post #111

For a human who deals with student work or reads job applications spotting AI generated work quickly becomes trivially easy. Text seems to use the same general framework (although words are swapped around) also we see what I call 'word of the week' where whichever 'AI' engine seems to get hung up on a particular English word which is often an unusual one and uses it at every opportunity. It isn't long before you real…

The ones that are easy to spot are easy to spot. You have no idea how much AI-generated work you didn't spot, because you didn't spot it.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#225

Post by concordDance »

strogonoff wrote: post #201
lwhi wrote: post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

The best method for assessing performance when learning is as old as the world: assess the effort, not how well the result complies with some requirements. If the level of effort made is high, but the outcome does not comply in some way, praise is due. If the outcome complies, but the level of effort is low, there is no reason for praise (what are you praising? mere compliance?) and you must have set a wrong bar. Not…

> The best method for assessing performance when learning is as old as the world: assess the effort, not how well the result complies with some requirements.

I am really quite confused about what you think the point of education is.

In general, the world (either the physical world or the employment world) does not care about effort, it cares about results. Someone laboriously filling their kettle with a teaspoon might be putting in a ton of effort, but I'd much rather someone else make the tea who can use a tap.

Why do we care about grades? Because universities and employers use them to quickly assess how useful someone is likely to be. Few people love biochemistry enough that they'd spend huge sums of money and time at university if it didn't help get them a job.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#226

Post by ckastner »

ben_w wrote: post #219
mrweasel wrote: post #184

The part that annoys me is that students apparently have no right to be told why the AI flagged their work. For any process where an computer is allowed to judge people, where should be a rule in place that demands that the algorithm be able explains EXACTLY why it flagged this person. Now this would effectively kill off the current AI powered solution, because they have no way of explaining, or even understanding, w…

> For any process where an computer is allowed to judge people, where should be a rule in place that demands that the algorithm be able explains EXACTLY why it flagged this person. This is a big part of GDPR.

Indeed. Quoting article 22 [1]:

> The data subject shall have the right not to be subject to a decision based solely on automated processing [...]

[1]: https://gdpr.eu/article-22-automated-individual-decision-mak...

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#227

Post by bigstrat2003 »

sqeaky wrote: post #211
briandear wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Regularly” is not a particularly accurate word. 50 million K12 students in the U.S. — how many mass murders are “regular?”

More than once a week not quite once a day. Rather than trying to diminish something that's completely preventable and abhorrent maybe we could discuss ways to actually prevent it. Because this isn't a problem anywhere else so clearly it's preventable. If AI can be part of a solution here this is a reasonable place to discuss it.

Nobody said we shouldn't try to solve the problem. But the first step is accurately describing the problem to be solved. Something that occurs once a year across the entire country has very different solutions than something which occurs once a week in every county.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#228

Post by sersi »

mrweasel wrote: post #184

The part that annoys me is that students apparently have no right to be told why the AI flagged their work. For any process where an computer is allowed to judge people, where should be a rule in place that demands that the algorithm be able explains EXACTLY why it flagged this person. Now this would effectively kill off the current AI powered solution, because they have no way of explaining, or even understanding, w…

It's a similar problem to people being banned from Google (insert big company name) because of an automated fraud detection system that doesn't give any reason behind the ban.

I also thing that there should be laws requiring a clear explanation whenever that happens.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#229

Post by xmodem »

greatartiste wrote: post #111

For a human who deals with student work or reads job applications spotting AI generated work quickly becomes trivially easy. Text seems to use the same general framework (although words are swapped around) also we see what I call 'word of the week' where whichever 'AI' engine seems to get hung up on a particular English word which is often an unusual one and uses it at every opportunity. It isn't long before you real…

One course I took actually provided students with the output of the plagiarism detector. It was great at correctly identifying where I had directly quoted (and attributed) a source.

It would also identify random 5-6 word phrases and attribute them to different random texts on completely different topics where those same 5 words happened to appear.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#230

Post by ClumsyPilot »

arkh wrote: post #123
krick wrote: post #58

That's kinda nuts how adult people learned to trust some random algorithms in a year or two. They don't know how it works, they cannot explain it, they don't care, it just works. It's magic. If it says you cheated, you cheated. You cannot do anything about it. I want to emphasize, that this isn't really about trusting magic, it's about people nonchalantly doing ridiculous stuff nowdays and that they aren't held accou…

It is not a bug, it is a feature. That's how you can mold society as you like at your level: this student's older sibling was a menace? Let's fuck them over, being shitty must run in the family. You don't like the race / gender / sexuality of a student? Now "chatGPT" can give you an easy way to make their school life harder.

This is not about ChatGPT. The same happens in HR departments And governments.

Just introduce an incomprehensible process, Like applying for a Visa or planning permission, and then use it to your advantage.

From the victims perspective, there is no difference between bureaucracy and AI

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