Earlier quoted context omitted.
If someone started again and fixed those issues, would it rock?
It would be a completely different language.
Yes I realise that
PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
111–120 of 135 posts
Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the people that attack it would rather see it die off than be "improved".
I don't think those people understand the economics of programming languages. It's not going to die off any time soon, what with all the thousands of companies that use it, and zillions of lines of code. As someone who would rather not ever work with PHP again, the best thing is to simply focus on other languages and environments, helping to bolster those ecosystems.
To clarify, "die off" means "stop getting NEW projects," not "everyone spontaneously destroys existing legacy apps." That has never been on the table.
When you say you don't want to use PHP again and want to focus on other languages, you are saying you want PHP to die off.
Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are the only reasonable voice on the matter I've heard so far. Infinite upvotes from me. We all know PHP has its shortcomings, but there appears to be a witch hunt going on here.
We all know PHP has its shortcomings, but there appears to be a witch hunt going on here. I think some of the witch hunt comes in attempt to steer people away from a language which is badly designed and has a million bugs which cannot be fixed without breaking most of the existing code written for the language. Pestering a language like that is only fair. While I'm sure it gets tiresome for those who for whatever rea…
Who are you to decide that?
I am one of those who chose to work with PHP, and I'm getting more than tired about that witch hunt, to a point where I would actually punch someone.
I do realise PHP is not ideal, but as I always say, in the end it get shits done, and the vast majority of those problems or "design flaws" does not affect 99.9% of the community. Most of the people who bitch about it are not even users, in the heavy user circles we know of some of the issues, try to advocate for improvement, but seriously in almost a decade of using PHP, I could compile all those blog posts, and confidently say : I never had any issue whatsoever with any of the problems pointed.
And that's what most elitist around here forget, for 99.9% of its user base, PHP is not flawed, it works, easy to learn, easy to scale, easy to deploy, upgrade, easy to find developers...
While I get what you are trying to say, you are in no position to say so, and the community -the one that actually matters- already spoke, we have no major issue with PHP, so leave us the fuck alone please. If it bugs you that much, consult a therapist you have bigger issues than PHP...
Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#114If there are so many people depending on PHP and all the code written in PHP in all of Turkey, why doesnt someone in Turkey fix the problem? Or anywhere for that matter? There is no "they" in this equation. There is no person who should be held more accountable than you or I for fixing this problem. The choices are simple: 1) Fix the problem 2) Find a work around 3) Don't use PHP What's that? There is a lot of open s…
The PHP project has ensured that "3) Don't use PHP" is the lowest-cost option. These bugs are not trivial, and there are far too many of them.
It is important that people should be fully aware of the technical liability they are taking on when they adopt PHP for nontrivial projects.
It isn't reasonable to demand that other people fix the huge collection of weird bugs in your project. Particularly when they are not invested in PHP (any more). PHP's bug collection is a strong reason not to invest in PHP (any more). If it is important to you to encourage PHP adoption, then YOU fix the bugs.
I am not wasting my life working around this nonsense because there is no reason why I should have to. There are alternatives which already work correctly.
Don't trade off against the cost of rewriting.
Trade off against the cost of using any of the well-developed alternatives which do not have the same bugs, the same volume of bugs, or the same internal processes which generate and shelter bugs for years on end.
Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#115Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#116This is a huge bug. Believe or not, many dev people in Turkey use locale tr_TR (which is perfectly normal) and when they begin to use "any" off-the-shelf PHP library/class with uppercase-I, it does not work at all. A little example, if APC has a class with I, it won't work on your tr_TR configured Windows Server. PHP is crap. Not even classical ASP had such bugs and it was perfectly passing the Turkey test ( http://w…
If this is such a dealbreaker for developers in Turkey, why have none of them, in the 10 years this bug has been alive, submitted a patch for it? PHP is open source, it relies on code submissions. edit: not trolling, just curious. What drives people to complain about specific, well-defined open source bugs without any effort to fix it? I understand hard-to-nail down issues like user experience, but this shouldn't be…
If there are viable alternative projects which never had that problem, you can save all the time rather than trying to salvage someone else's broken software. It's a lot less time and trouble. What reason do I even have for fixing your project? I don't owe PHP loyalty when it is broken for me.
If there are viable alternative projects which are more responsive to bug reports, that is more promising for the future - if a second bug I see is reasonably likely to be fixed in the future, I can feel more confident basing my own code on it.
People spend months and years writing apps on top of things like PHP and once they have the code they don't necessarily have a lot of choice. At that point maybe you fix the bugs in your dependencies rather than rewrite your own app. But when you have a choice, you don't adopt a tool which is going to leave you with this much technical liability.
This is offered peacefully in an attempt to explain the question which seems to confuse you.
Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's exactly what I'm talking about, it's insulting and it disappoints me that all of the recent HN threads have been full of similar insults. Their arguments always seem to boil down to "my hammer is better than your hammer, and you're an idiot for choosing the wrong hammer, but luckily I am here to re-educate you".
PHP is so incredibly bad as to have no redeeming qualities to the language whatsoever other than its simplicity in deployment. Whereas I can have reasoned conversations with proponents of most modern languages, PHP is simply and unequivocally a complete and total failure of a language, and there is resultantly absolutely no room for concession when discussing the language. PHP is broken and should never be used, and…
> PHP is broken and should never be used, and if there are use cases that the alternatives don't address, we should work to address them.
What alternatives meet your standards of not sharing qualities of PHP while matching the quality of simplicity in deployment (of which Python and Ruby instantly fail)?
Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#118PHP is to Ruby(Or whatever your hater flavor is) as Christians is to Muslims. Neither of them are going to go away until one of them kills all the others. The more likely alternative is something else coming and destroying them both.
This is simply proof of the demographic and blind nature of the Hacker News audience. Pathetic
Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
While I agree lots of that is emotive, it is hard to argue against the truth in 1. badly designed, 2. bugs, and 3. which cannot be fixed without breaking most PHP code. The rest follows naturally. Anyway: Have an upvote for objectively dissecting my semi-objective analysis.
If someone started again and fixed those issues, would it rock?
Would it rock? Nah. It would merely make it less horrible. It lacks fundamental elegance and it lacks advanced capabilities. Even if fixed, it would still only be clinging to the crown of mediocracy.
But that is fine. Not all languages can or should be mind bending or define its own paradigm. So yeah, if all its problems was somehow in all unlikelyness fixed, it would be fine. It would be fine, but it would in no way "rock".
Re: PHP Bug #18556 : Setting locale to 'tr_TR' lowercases class names
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
We all know PHP has its shortcomings, but there appears to be a witch hunt going on here. I think some of the witch hunt comes in attempt to steer people away from a language which is badly designed and has a million bugs which cannot be fixed without breaking most of the existing code written for the language. Pestering a language like that is only fair. While I'm sure it gets tiresome for those who for whatever rea…
Who are you to decide that? I am one of those who chose to work with PHP, and I'm getting more than tired about that witch hunt, to a point where I would actually punch someone. I do realise PHP is not ideal, but as I always say, in the end it get shits done, and the vast majority of those problems or "design flaws" does not affect 99.9% of the community. Most of the people who bitch about it are not even users, in t…
I suspect that the only people who can defend PHP on technical merits are people who have yet to try something better and have yet to realize just how much better most other options out there are.
If that describes you, I am sorry for you, and deeply encourage you to take on something new on the side, in a different language. Just for fun, learning and exploration. Just to let your mind get a feel for how the world can (and maybe should) be different.
I've done PHP. I've been there. So don't get me wrong. PHP has good sides. Yes yes, it does. But IMO (and I'm far from alone here) they are completely overshadowed by the bad sides.