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FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

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Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where if you cancelled early they would charge you an exorbitant cancellation fee. I'm currently in the process of de-Adboe'ing my life because of the subscription model. It's not htat you get charged an exorbitant cancellation fee, per se. It's that, from Adobe's point of view, you entered into a year-long contract. And so if you want to cancel after 3 months, the only option they give you is to pay for the rest o…

Companies are less shy about paying for recurring licenses because it's easier for them. No need to worry about keeping track of a perpetual license that a former employee purchased or having too many unused seats for a network license. Once a year, the license admin pays the bill (and potentially updates the network licenses) and it's all good until next year. License payments can be billed to individual departments…

> Additionally you can't sell a perpetual license when you don't need it anymore

You make some good points but I'm not sure that this generalization really holds. It will depend on the terms of the license but I have heard of buying, selling & trading software licenses (at least on an individual basis, it might be harder for companies to do that).

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#772
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsubscribe links are a fantastic regulation, but there is a workaround. I must have received at least a dozen emails from Brown after graduating despite unsubscribing to every email they sent. The trouble is they're endlessly creative about the lists they put you on. I'd get one email from "Alumni Connections" and then another from "Faculty Spotlight" and then another from "Global Outreach" and then another from "Ev…

What I have noticed companies do is resume emails after a year or so. They probably think people would forget about unsubscribing them after a year, and for the most part they are right. If I catch any of these email lists not respecting my unsubscribing, I immediately mark them as "spam". Gmail then doesn't send them to my inbox anymore. I don't think just one person marking them as spam hurts them, but at least I f…

From my small company experience, this is more likely incompetence than maliciousness. Spreadsheets get passed around and remerged back into the blob. Mind you, I don't mean to excuse this behavior. Just to understand it. And of course, unsubscribe processes will be near the bottom of anyone's priority list until the complaints and threats begin to mount.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I remember when Amazon Prime first started, I signed up for the free trial to get free shipping on something. Of course, I forgot about it and didn’t cancel, but then I got an email from Amazon saying, “hey, you didn’t cancel your prime subscription but you also haven’t used it at all, so we are going to not charge you and cancel it for now. Here is how you easily restart your subscription if you end up needing…

Early Amazon was pro-customer in a way that I think most people have forgotten. Maybe that was always the strategy? They were losing money for years, and maybe that was investing in the company, or maybe it was allowing really large losses to keep customers happy, planning all along to eventually clamp down when people were addicted. And here we are. Their return rate is still pretty terrible, IIRC. I bet they are tr…

Of course that’s the strategy. It’s called enshitifcation. Cory Doctorow coined the term and has many cool examples like this in his related speeches and blog posts.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#774

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

I'm super appreciative of what we have, but there's absolutely issues. CAN-SPAM specifies that the link must be clearly marked and suggests using CSS to do so, but the link is still always going to be at the bottom of the email in the smallest font used. It only matters for those of us who know to look for it ; many people just have to live with the spam because they don't know it's easy to unsubscribe. Sometimes it'…

It really needs to be made a mandatory header or something like that.

I've noticed that many email providers (e.g. GMail, Apple Mail) will actually show an "Unsubscribe" button for some emails, but not all. I wonder if it just heuristics, or there's actually some existing mechanism that is used to communicate it.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Citizens United] was pretty clearly correctly decided. The alternative is the government can prohibit you from distributing political speech because it costs money to do it, which would imply that they could ban all private mass media under the argument that there are some people who can't afford a printing press or a radio tower. Presenting this controversial view that many knowledgeable and intelligent people wo…

Unfortunately, many knowledgeable and intelligent people have failed to look into CU from any angle other than the one it is usually presented from: that is is about corporate spending on elections. Which it is, but as the GP described, it's about a lot more than that. I happen to think it was incorrectly decided - SCOTUS should have differentiated between different categories of corporation (using existing tax code…

> SCOTUS should have differentiated between different categories of corporation (using existing tax code distinctions), and prevented (at least) regular for-profit corporations (of any tax status) from political spending.

It's not obvious how that would have made any difference when a for-profit corporation could just give the money it wants to spend to an aligned non-profit to spend it in the same way. Unless you mean to prevent them from donating money to the non-profit, but then where is a non-profit supposed to derive funding? "All political speech can be funded only by government grants" has a pretty clear conflict of interest, and you would then somehow have to deal with for-profit entities that inherently engage in political speech like newspapers and cable news networks. Why should Comcast/MSNBC or Fox be able to dedicate unlimited airtime to political advocacy but not Intel or Ford?

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the cherry picked example of CA California by itself accounts for more than 10% of the electorate and it's not a cherry picked example, it's what generally happens when a state is under one-party control. I provided links for California and New York because they're the two largest blue states by population. > overrepresention of Republicans That is what tends to happen in ungerrymandered districts because of the po…

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/gerr... "Nationally, extreme partisan bias in congressional maps gave Republicans a net 16 to 17 seat advantage for most of last decade. Michigan, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania alone — the three states with the worst gerrymanders in the last redistricting cycle — accounted for 7 to 10 extra Republican seats in the House." Re: Citizens... I don't even know whe…

> "Nationally, extreme partisan bias in congressional maps gave Republicans a net 16 to 17 seat advantage for most of last decade."

The Brennan Center is a left-wing think tank. They're basically describing the thing I already mentioned in partisan terms:

> "Cracking and packing can often result in regularly shaped districts that look appealing to the eye but nonetheless skew heavily in favor of one party."

> "Because of residential segregation, it is much easier for map drawers to pack or crack communities of color to achieve maximum political advantage."

In other words, if the geography is such that there are areas where one party is highly dominant (i.e. urban areas) and other areas where the other party is slightly dominant (suburbs) then if you draw districts in a natural way the second party gets proportionally more seats because they win a larger number of districts by a smaller margin. They're essentially complaining that those states didn't gerrymander the districts to favor the Democrats to offset the natural advantage of Republicans in the existing geographic population distribution.

But Congress isn't intended to use proportional representation and gerrymandering to force the number of party seats to match the popular vote is just disenfranchising people in a different way by ignoring the effect that has on the behavior of individual representatives. For example, what they're proposing would be a de facto ban on majority-black districts because one district which is 60% black and votes 65% for Democrats and another that votes 55% for Republicans would result in fewer seats for Democrats than two districts that are 30% black and both vote 55% for Democrats. And both of the Democrats in the latter districts would have to move to the right because they'd otherwise both be at risk of a Republican picking off enough moderates to flip the district.

> It was in place for a decade when Citizens was decided and the only thing it prevented was billionaires and corporations spending unlimited amounts of money on electioneering.

It required them to spend the money in different ways, which mostly lock out smaller companies, meanwhile conglomerates buying news networks has been a thing the whole time.

> (Media companies love it: they get more spending on ads).

Political ads are ~1% of all ad spending and much of even that money goes to the likes of Google and Facebook. Meanwhile it means non-media companies that want to air a political message can do it directly instead of having to do so indirectly by allocating more of the other 99% of ad spending to traditional media companies to curry favor and provide leverage to get favorable coverage.

It also dilutes the power of media companies, because the media company is not going to air coverage contrary to their own political interests no matter how much you run non-political ads with them, whereas someone who has a contrary interest can now run ads on social media.

> Before and after McCain-Feingold media companies by law aren't allowed to refuse any political ad

But it prohibited most entities that wanted to run those ads from doing it.

Suppose Comcast and AT&T don't like network neutrality and Amazon does. So Comcast buys MSNBC and AT&T buys CNN, gears them even more to viewers in the party that had been advocating it, but suppresses advocacy of the issue they're on the other side of to shut off support. Should Amazon now buy their own network? Is that better than letting them run Facebook ads? What if the EFF or some non-teracorp like Digital Ocean support network neutrality, but can't afford to buy a major network?

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#777
FUBO.tv has a “cancel free trial” button that cancels your free 7 day trial immediately when pressed rather than cancelling the billing subscription.

Also, your subscription there cannot be cancelled from the mobile website nor from the TV.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm super appreciative of what we have, but there's absolutely issues. CAN-SPAM specifies that the link must be clearly marked and suggests using CSS to do so, but the link is still always going to be at the bottom of the email in the smallest font used. It only matters for those of us who know to look for it ; many people just have to live with the spam because they don't know it's easy to unsubscribe. Sometimes it'…

I don't really see putting important links in the footer as anti-pattern. For my entire internet life, many important links were put into the footer of a webpage. Careers, About Us, Contact Us, Locations, Citations, etc. They are expected to be there. Most emails I get aren't long enough to scroll anyway. Companies generally know people aren't going to read more than maybe a sentence in a given email. I can get to mo…

>I don't really see putting important links in the footer as anti-pattern. For my entire internet life, many important links were put into the footer of a webpage. Careers, About Us, Contact Us, Locations, Citations, etc. They are expected to be there.

Yes, because after a century of public relations and marketing you expect fine print to be in these locations because you have been marketed to from infancy, which has made you apparently, forget that today's dark pattern creators stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before them, and the fact that you expect that stuff to be there is because your worldview has been successfully engineered. Important links under the fold, aka the first page are there to be overlooked. What they want from YOU is top of the page.

>Most emails I get aren't long enough to scroll anyway.

Careful with that kind of thinking, marketing works on everybody. A seed is planted, by appealing to emotional arguments. If it takes root, then your worldview starts to change, via rationalization. The smarter you are, the better and more subtle your rationalizations and better it works.

This project of social engineering was given to a guy named Edwin Bernays, who wrote several very plain and easy to read books on how he was going to do this project. First one was "The Engineering of Consent."

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#779
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got on a mailing list for something from IBM. The unsubscribe link took me to a page that always said it was "temporarily" unavailable I should try again later. The first time I gave them the benefit of the doubt. After a few tries over the course of months, I decided that it was permanently unavailable, and if it really was broken, they didn't have any motivation to fix it. So I set up a filter to automatically de…

You should email them and tell them they're not in compliance with that regulation. IBM will have lawyers who care, so you might be able to stop that spam not just for yourself but for everyone.

Those lawyers know all about it, and why it's legal. If you want a lawyer to elp you, hire one.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not engagement, it's passive consumption. The system only works if sufficient people are part of the process, and that takes at the very minimum two way communication.

I mean this specifically in America, but does "political engagement" even do anything here? Pretty sure the battle lines have been drawn and you're either spamming or preaching to the choir.

You could use your engagement to live a live infused with your values, as a beacon to other like minded people, or people who were unaware they were like minded, until they saw your light in their tunnel.
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