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FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

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Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#531

Post by AnthonyMouse »

Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

> When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are.

The general problem is that the government is miserable at drafting things. Even take the regulation you like:

https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/can-spam-act...

> "Your message must include your valid physical postal address."

WTF? They can't just pass a simple rule that says you need a working unsubscribe link, they have to include some arduous nonsense that requires small businesses to pay for a PO box so they don't have to publish their home address in every email.

Nobody wants to unsubscribe by postal mail. But decades later the requirement is still there. So then businesses oppose every new rule because the government can't refrain from making them pointlessly onerous.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#532

Post by colechristensen »

scottyah wrote: post #419
alkonaut wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanted to see if it finally included taxes on price tags… but instead this law explicitly excludes taxes. So close.

The government needs to provide a service if we ever want taxes to be included. Taxes vary by city and can even depend on where you live, so sellers wouldn't be able to give you a price until you say where you are and where you're from for some sales. That's why you basically need a third party if you run an ecommerce website, unless you have a team to track down every time a county or city changes their taxes.

>That's why you basically need a third party if you run an ecommerce website, unless you have a team to track down every time a county or city changes their taxes.

Every ecommerce site already has to calculate taxes on checkout, already has a third party for this information (usually the payment processor).

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#533

Post by advisedwang »

andrewla wrote: post #484
advisedwang wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> regulatory body straining at the limits of its remit The FTC's establishing laws make "unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce" unlawful and give them power to regulate that. It doesn't seem to be straining at the limits of remit to rule that making it hard for people to end a subscription is unfair/deceptive.

To whom is this "unfair"? A business has a legitimate interest in preventing customers from taking advantage of bulk discounts (committing to a long term of service in exchange for lower prices), and customers have a legitimate interest in opting to discontinue a service that is no longer needed. Where to draw that line does not seem cut and dry to me. What is the specific nature of the "deception" -- what claim was…

Right now signing up for Planet Fitness says "No Commitment". It is unfair AND deceptive to say no commitment but make it impossible to cancel.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#534

Post by lars_francke »

asdfk-12 wrote: post #530

The New York Times can suck a lemon, 40 minutes of my life, multiple calls and transfers to cancel a subscription. Hopefully this will be meaningfully enforced.

As absurd as it sounds: I probably would have a NYT subscription right now if it were easier to cancel.

I sometimes subscribe to these organizations for a few months, then cancel to try something new, come back for a bit etc.

But NYT has forever lost me with their cancellation nightmare.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#535

Post by ClassyJacket »

beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #130
bilsbie wrote: post #101

I wonder how this would work for gyms? They should clean up their act anyway. If other customers are like me I’ve been putting off joining for over a year because they’re so scammy and I don’t want to get locked in. I even went to sign up and walked out because the price ended up being double what they advertised with weird fees and the base plan not being useable once they explain it.

If you setup a "payment agreement" between yourself, the gym (or any similar service), and your credit card, you should be able to cancel that agreement and the subsequent services that agreement entailed through your credit card . The byzantine and manipulative things that gyms do are, in part, because we basically let them control the cancellation process.

I agree. In Australia we have much better banking than the US (instant free transfers between all banks), but you still can't cancel a recurring payment thru your bank like that. I had trouble cancelling a gym earlier this year.

When I lived in the UK and I wanted to cancel my gym, not only can you cancel the recurring payment thru your bank app, but the gym's website said that's how you should cancel.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#536

Post by eclipticplane »

ssharp wrote: post #50

My workaround to this has been to email the company telling them I want to cancel. Once I either don't get a reply, or get a reply saying "just call us and we'll cancel!", I dispute the next charge with American Express and have the email record of trying to cancel. I believe they also offer a "stop allowing charges by this merchant" feature that cuts off future charges.

> I believe they also offer a "stop allowing charges by this merchant" feature that cuts off future charges.

Yes, but you have to call or chat them. It's quick, but I'd _much_ prefer a way in app / website to block a merchant.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#537

Post by 1shooner »

inetknght wrote: post #353
ksd482 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I have noticed companies do is resume emails after a year or so. They probably think people would forget about unsubscribing them after a year, and for the most part they are right. If I catch any of these email lists not respecting my unsubscribing, I immediately mark them as "spam". Gmail then doesn't send them to my inbox anymore. I don't think just one person marking them as spam hurts them, but at least I f…

> I immediately mark them as "spam". Ahh yes, the feel-good response that Google gives you without doing anything substantial to prevent spam from reaching you in the future.

User-reported spam in gmail is actually very efficacious. Aside from the logic gmail applies to your inbox specifically, Google's current violation threshold for those reports is .03%. Beyond that, those reports start to pull down sender IP and domain reputation, which impacts overall deliverablity to anyone's gmail inbox.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#538

Post by whakim »

amatecha wrote: post #67

Nice. I canceled a service recently and I had to "continue to cancel" and click on other such "confirmations" such that I think I proceeded through 7-8 pages before my subscription was actually canceled. Truly manipulative and obtuse. That was Spotify btw. I should have recorded the process, as it was nearly comedic (if it weren't so hostile).

It wasn’t clear to me that this sort of thing is explicitly forbidden under this regulation?

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#539

Post by jacobgkau »

dionian wrote: post #513
shepherdjerred wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should try cancelling the New York Times, Bon Appetite, or Planet Fitness

having to go in physically to cancel for Planet Fitness was absurd and infuriating. but it worked, i delayed it for months out of procrastination

Planet Fitness pisses me off just in that they require giving them your checking account number to sign up instead of accepting credit cards. The only excuse I've heard for why that's a legitimate decision is that "some people are rude and will cancel a credit card instead of just saying they want to cancel their membership." But given that Planet Fitness can immediately shut off access for that person's app/QR code the instant a payment gets rejected, I simply do not believe the number of cancelled credit cards they'd have to deal with justifies the security risk and hassle (and lock-in, like you said) that their solution causes.

The fact that even with the Black Card (any location) membership, you still have to be tied to one "home" location and can only manage your plan at that one location is also predatory. I've read stories of people calling into Planet Fitness corporate and eventually getting a customer service rep to cancel their plan (when the location refused to do so remotely), so it's not a limitation of their system and it's not a legal restriction, it's just another way they make it difficult to cancel.

I will mention, one loophole for at least getting around a bad Planet Fitness location (e.g. a manager pretending they're not receiving the cancellation form in the mail) is going to another location, having them transfer your membership there, and then cancelling with them. I've done the store-and-back thing for changing plans before, and the managers oftentimes don't care/are happy to help with it.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#540

Post by fastball »

ssharp wrote: post #50

My workaround to this has been to email the company telling them I want to cancel. Once I either don't get a reply, or get a reply saying "just call us and we'll cancel!", I dispute the next charge with American Express and have the email record of trying to cancel. I believe they also offer a "stop allowing charges by this merchant" feature that cuts off future charges.

Although in practice I don't think it will be an issue, in theory issuing a chargeback on your credit card does not release you from any financial obligations you agreed to with a contract. And if that contract specifies that you must "call to cancel" I don't think "I emailed" will hold up in court (but IANAL). Of course with this FCC ruling that could very well not be the case, but in any case always be wary of issuing a chargeback and thinking the matter settled if you did actually have legitimate commerce with the business in question.
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