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FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

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Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#451

Post by ClumsyPilot »

itsdrewmiller wrote: post #325
Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

I don’t think regulation has much to do with their excellence at all - it’s largely ESPs competing to provide a better mailbox experience and using things like that and spf/dkim/dmarc conformance to reduce spam.

> I don’t think regulation has much to do with their excellence at all

If there is no regulation, the government is at fault

If regulation doesn’t work, government is at fault

And if it works, they still don’t get the credit

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#452

Post by ethbr1 »

mtgentry wrote: post #434
justinpombrio wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsubscribe links are a fantastic regulation, but there is a workaround. I must have received at least a dozen emails from Brown after graduating despite unsubscribing to every email they sent. The trouble is they're endlessly creative about the lists they put you on. I'd get one email from "Alumni Connections" and then another from "Faculty Spotlight" and then another from "Global Outreach" and then another from "Ev…

Reminds me of text messages from the DNC. I gave my phone number to Obama in ‘08 and have been endlessly pestered ever since.

Everyone should be educated to never give their number or email to a political campaign of any sort.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#453

Post by JacobThreeThree »

ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #302
JacobThreeThree wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancelling The Economist was pretty terrible too.

I cancelled in May with their chatbox and not only was it hassle-free but instead of refunding the remaining pro rata portion of the year I got the entire year's subscription fee refunded without even asking for it.

Ahh, okay, glad to see they've updated the process. Previously you had to call and find your way through a maze of disinterested people putting you on hold.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#454

Post by advisedwang »

andrewla wrote: post #414
Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

The big difference here is that this was created by an act of Congress, not the result of a regulatory body straining at the limits of its remit. That makes it much more likely to survive administration changes or court challenges. Even now the CAN-SPAM act feels outdated -- I do like the unsubscribe button, but I would like to see email verification made explicitly required. That in order to start emailing you, you…

> regulatory body straining at the limits of its remit

The FTC's establishing laws make "unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce" unlawful and give them power to regulate that. It doesn't seem to be straining at the limits of remit to rule that making it hard for people to end a subscription is unfair/deceptive.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#455

Post by ethbr1 »

andrewla wrote: post #414
Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

The big difference here is that this was created by an act of Congress, not the result of a regulatory body straining at the limits of its remit. That makes it much more likely to survive administration changes or court challenges. Even now the CAN-SPAM act feels outdated -- I do like the unsubscribe button, but I would like to see email verification made explicitly required. That in order to start emailing you, you…

I think we should go back the early web idea and just fractionally charge for email.

E.g. $0.001 per email, paid to the recipient

Insignificant at personal scale, but a deterrent to sending low-value emails at mass scale, and double-painful when an unbalanced flow (i.e. a spammer who receives no organic email coming in)

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#456

Post by monksy »

justinpombrio wrote: post #265
Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

Unsubscribe links are a fantastic regulation, but there is a workaround. I must have received at least a dozen emails from Brown after graduating despite unsubscribing to every email they sent. The trouble is they're endlessly creative about the lists they put you on. I'd get one email from "Alumni Connections" and then another from "Faculty Spotlight" and then another from "Global Outreach" and then another from "Ev…

So I'm getting these emails from the KamalaHarris campaign. They're signed by the domain as well. I've never given money to the organiation, I'm not connected with their party, I've never signed up for the campaign, or interacted with them. However, I'm constantly being put on their mailing list soliciting for donations.

I've seen how the campaigns pass around email addresses without consent. (Mostly from ActBlue) So I'm concerned about validating an email address via unsubscribe.

I've reported this to abuse at sendgrid, and now sparkpostmail. They're shopping for email services.

Proof of org spamming:

Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@e.kamalaharris.com header.s=ak01 header.b=kJamWIyP; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bounces@bounces.e.kamalaharris.com designates 168.203.32.245 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bounces@bounces.e.kamalaharris.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=e.kamalaharris.com

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#457

Post by r00fus »

enragedcacti wrote: post #382
r00fus wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (as long as Lina Khan stays on as commissioner) She may not be around for long (a travesty in my opinion if so). Neither presidential candidate is stumping for her kind of activism, even the Dem one. And the big money wants her gone. Sure we can vote, but it seems big money has more influence regardless.

> Neither presidential candidate is stumping for her kind of activism, even the Dem one Harris hasn't outright said she would keep on Khan, but from a policy perspective I think they are very aligned, even to the point of Harris copying Khan's homework a bit (not in a bad way, just interesting). They have both explicitly called out grocery revenue growth exceeding total costs, both want to go after PBMs to lower drug…

Her big funders are pushing for Khan's removal (e.g. Mark Cuban). The big issue that these people have against Khan is the blocking of mergers that's a big source of bonuses for Wall St.

Obviously Khan is out if Trump is elected.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#458

Post by hgomersall »

ethbr1 wrote: post #452
mtgentry wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of text messages from the DNC. I gave my phone number to Obama in ‘08 and have been endlessly pestered ever since.

Everyone should be educated to never give their number or email to a political campaign of any sort.

How do you propose political engagement could work if nobody were willing to provide contact details?

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#459

Post by advisedwang »

Spoom wrote: post #5

Does the FTC actually have the power to set rules like this effectively now that Chevron deference isn't a thing? I'd imagine e.g. the New York Times, among others, will quickly sue to stop this, no?

The FTC has the power to make rules about "unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce." All the lack of Chevron deference means is the courts are more willing to step in to decide whether or not a rule falls under that. So in this case it makes it harder for FTC to fight a hypothetical NYT lawsuit, but far from impossible.

In practice abolishing Chevron deference mostly means rules will follow the politics of judges rather than the current administration. TBH I think this rule is far enough from the culture war that it will probably stand anyway. Unless the NYT happens to buy the judges a lot of vacations...

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#460

Post by peetle »

justinpombrio wrote: post #265
Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

Unsubscribe links are a fantastic regulation, but there is a workaround. I must have received at least a dozen emails from Brown after graduating despite unsubscribing to every email they sent. The trouble is they're endlessly creative about the lists they put you on. I'd get one email from "Alumni Connections" and then another from "Faculty Spotlight" and then another from "Global Outreach" and then another from "Ev…

The same thing has happened to me with political donations. Every day I receive an email from a different candidate. It is like whack a mole.
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