How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah • Hacker News Board

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#51

Post by OzFreedom » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 4:06 PM UTC

sottol wrote: post #42

matthberg wrote: post #15

This section of the literal Geneva Convention [1], which Israel is a signatory of [2] seems rather relevant. While this article's breakdown of the what's and how's is quite interesting, keeping international law in mind while talking about the attack seems important. - "2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and const…

Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text - important in this context: "unless either: (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences."

Why am I not surprised

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#52

Post by CodexArcanum » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 4:07 PM UTC

sottol wrote: post #42

matthberg wrote: post #15

This section of the literal Geneva Convention [1], which Israel is a signatory of [2] seems rather relevant. While this article's breakdown of the what's and how's is quite interesting, keeping international law in mind while talking about the attack seems important. - "2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and const…

Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text - important in this context: "unless either: (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences."

Please elaborate on the measures taken to protect and warn civilians, or which specific military objectives the children hurt by those exploding pagers were in the close vicinity of.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#53

Post by rougka » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 4:22 PM UTC

aspenmayer wrote: post #50

rougka wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can sum up my position as this: 1. the original intent of the law was so further away from this scenario that it isn't really applicable in any form. You can see from the first clause that they envisioned a scenario where a soldier is hurt by a booby trapped flag being left in some base. Hence the fact this is part of the mine convention. 2. I am not convinced this actually applies in the legal sense of who signed…

1. I would disagree. These aren't mines, as they aren't triggered by the target. They're similar to the booby trapped tobacco pipes mentioned in one of my links, which were triggered by the trapper. 2. Intelligence agencies don't get POW protections, so that point is not really relevant. Treaties bind you, even if your enemy is not similarly bound. 3. If the targeted assassinations with booby trapped pagers didn't ha…

1. Then we will have to disagree, for me it was quite obvious what scenario they had in heart when writing the convention. While the difference here would at least mean a court will need to decide this applies here, as this is not clear cut relevant in any way

2. And so do terrorist organizations. As this does not qualify as an international conflict this does not apply without the annex

3. The civilian casualties are absolutely minimal in proportion to the military usefulness much more than a classic attack.

About the escalatory nature, this is purely my opinion but after 1 year of open conflict that left many refugees, Israel would have to attack eventually.

Also when looking at this entire conflict as an Iran-Israel confrontation, this is merely a natural continuation

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#54

Post by aspenmayer » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 4:33 PM UTC

rougka wrote: post #53

aspenmayer wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I would disagree. These aren't mines, as they aren't triggered by the target. They're similar to the booby trapped tobacco pipes mentioned in one of my links, which were triggered by the trapper. 2. Intelligence agencies don't get POW protections, so that point is not really relevant. Treaties bind you, even if your enemy is not similarly bound. 3. If the targeted assassinations with booby trapped pagers didn't ha…

1. Then we will have to disagree, for me it was quite obvious what scenario they had in heart when writing the convention. While the difference here would at least mean a court will need to decide this applies here, as this is not clear cut relevant in any way 2. And so do terrorist organizations. As this does not qualify as an international conflict this does not apply without the annex 3. The civilian casualties ar…

1. It is pretty clear that it does apply to me, so agree to disagree.

2. I linked why both Israel and Lebanon are both bound? Not sure why it would matter whether it's international or not, but it crossed borders, so to me it seems clear.

3. I agree, it was an amazing feat, and minimal casualties considering the impact. Also, due to suspected/impending exposure of pager operation, there was no time to delay without exposing the operation for no impact. It was a massive military/intel win for Israel, and I can't think of a more deserving target. I don't take any joy in the civilian casualties, but I'm not sure that was even a factor due to the potential imminent exposure to the operation, and they already decided to put the operation in motion. At that point, no real compelling reason not to follow through.

I agree with you that it was entirely unsurprising that something would happen involving disrupting continued strikes. I'm more surprised that we found out as much as we have in the original post than I am surprised that it happened.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#55

Post by dang » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 5:52 PM UTC

myth_drannon wrote: post #24

SteveSmith16384 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Would you please stop posting this sort of battle comment to HN? You've been doing it repeatedly and breaking the site guidelines in the process. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for—regardless of which war, or which side you're for or against.

I know other commenters have been doing it too, but your comments (and comment history) stand out among the ones I've looked at in this thread so far.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#56

Post by tdeck » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 6:01 PM UTC

underseacables wrote: post #35

matthberg wrote: post #15

This section of the literal Geneva Convention [1], which Israel is a signatory of [2] seems rather relevant. While this article's breakdown of the what's and how's is quite interesting, keeping international law in mind while talking about the attack seems important. - "2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and const…

I didn't realize Hamas and Hezbollah were wearing clearly identifiable uniforms. They're terrorists so nothing applies.

Israel is the #1 terrorist in the region by any intellectually honest definition of the term. This article is about a terrorist attack by Israel that injured many civilians. And let's not forget when Israeli soldiers dressed up as doctors to murder someone lying in a hospital bed.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#57

Post by tptacek » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 6:03 PM UTC

CodexArcanum wrote: post #52

sottol wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text - important in this context: "unless either: (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences."

Please elaborate on the measures taken to protect and warn civilians, or which specific military objectives the children hurt by those exploding pagers were in the close vicinity of.

Weeks out, with more facts settled, it does appear that this was one of the most (if not the most) precisely targeted attacks in the history of modern warfare, measured either by ratio of combatants to noncombatants injured, or by the measures used to target it (which included creating a fake pager distributor that sold legitimate pagers to legitimate sources and selectively delivered compromised pagers specifically to Hezbollah, which used them on a private military network it fought a civil war in Lebanon to maintain).

What isn't captured in these threads but should be obvious to anyone looking 150 miles south is that conventional warfare, as conducted by every military power in the world, kills children and noncombatants in vastly higher numbers.

Use this attack to disqualify Israel's reckless and militarily pointless continued campaign in Gaza. Clearly, they had the capability not to conduct warfare the way they are there. Or, if you like, to condemn all warfare worldwide. But the attempt to single out the pager/radio attack as distinctively amoral is unpersuasive.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#58

Post by tptacek » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 6:04 PM UTC

orwin wrote: post #21

matthberg wrote: post #15

This section of the literal Geneva Convention [1], which Israel is a signatory of [2] seems rather relevant. While this article's breakdown of the what's and how's is quite interesting, keeping international law in mind while talking about the attack seems important. - "2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and const…

Yeah, it's the definition of a terror attack. The really bad part is how lauded the Mossad was for it's 'precision' by the western media. Geneva convention violations, random children killed because Hezbollah militant were shopping/walking nearby, really 'precise'... On the other hand killing only 5 children for two hundred opposants, and not at least twice as much is proof that Mossad is a hundred of time more preci…

A terror attack definitionally targets civilian noncombatants, deliberately.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#59

Post by rougka » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 6:10 PM UTC

aspenmayer wrote: post #54

rougka wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Then we will have to disagree, for me it was quite obvious what scenario they had in heart when writing the convention. While the difference here would at least mean a court will need to decide this applies here, as this is not clear cut relevant in any way 2. And so do terrorist organizations. As this does not qualify as an international conflict this does not apply without the annex 3. The civilian casualties ar…

1. It is pretty clear that it does apply to me, so agree to disagree. 2. I linked why both Israel and Lebanon are both bound? Not sure why it would matter whether it's international or not, but it crossed borders, so to me it seems clear. 3. I agree, it was an amazing feat, and minimal casualties considering the impact. Also, due to suspected/impending exposure of pager operation, there was no time to delay without e…

2. I think the issue is whether it is an armed conflict between nations (but i am not a lawyer)

While even though hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, their entire modus operandi is based on being a non-state organization, which helps them keep the conflict low intensity (until at least up until this year)

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#60

Post by sir0010010 » Wed, Oct 16, 2024, 6:23 PM UTC

CodexArcanum wrote: post #52

sottol wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text - important in this context: "unless either: (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences."

Please elaborate on the measures taken to protect and warn civilians, or which specific military objectives the children hurt by those exploding pagers were in the close vicinity of.

The pagers were sold to Hezbollah. The military objectives achieved were: a) to prevent the combatants holding the pagers from being able to attack Israel in the future b) to disrupt the communications of Hezbollah, therefore, making it more difficult for them to coordinate attacks Israel.

Also, the explosives used were weak such that most people near them were maimed rather than killed. Meaning, it is reasonable to assume that alternative methods of eliminating the Hezbollah operatives, such as airstrikes or a ground invasion, would end up with a significantly higher civilian casualty per targeted combatant ratio than what we saw with the pager attack.