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Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

theguardian.com

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Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#71

Post by Philadelphia »

profsummergig wrote: post #30

> “The DNA indicates that Christopher Columbus’s origin lay in the western Mediterranean,” said the researcher. “If there weren’t Jews in Genoa in the 15th century, the likelihood that he was from there is minimal. Neither was there a big Jewish presence in the rest of the Italian peninsula, which makes things very tenuous.” Does anyone else think that this is a poorly argued piece? Being Jewish, and having some Jewi…

As a person with Jewish ancestry from the Italian peninsula in the 15th Century, I can say there are some other issues with this.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#72

Post by woodruffw »

transfire wrote: post #58

Oh brother. I’m sure most of the European world has some Jewish descendants somewhere in there blood line. Hell, even Hilter did! Why is that a big deal? As if having some Jewish descendant makes everything you ever did a Jewish accomplishment.

I don’t think anyone besides a few Spanish and Italian ultranationalists are interested in claiming Columbus’s “accomplishments.” Any evidence of Columbus being Jewish is mostly interesting for anthropological and historical reasons, not chest-beating ones.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#73

Post by juunpp »

chipdart wrote: post #35

From the article: > “Unfortunately, from a scientific point of view, we can’t really evaluate what was in the documentary because they offered no data from the analysis whatsoever,” Antonio Alonso, a geneticist and former director of Spain’s National Institute of Toxicology and Forensic Sciences told El País. So, baseless speculation used by the Spanish regime to claim Christopher Columbus as Spanish during the Spani…

How does a Jew discovering the Americas benefit the Spanish regime when the Spanish Catholic monarchy precisely kicked all Jews and Muslims from the peninsula with their ill-named "reconquista"? If this turns out to be true, then it'd be rather embarrassing.

Presumably this Lorente has more evidence he hasn't put on display, so it isn't completely baseless either.

It's certainly sketchy and not very scientific, though, per the same criticism outlined in the article.

I also don't understand why people get a boner with Columbus. It is since the Greeks that people knew the world was not flat, and the vikings (presumably Leif Erikson) landed in Canada much earlier after a quick hop from Greeland. The only questions left at that point were: how big is that land over there, and can you get to India traveling West? It's all good and stuff, but not mind-blowing to me.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#74

Post by dullcrisp »

nudpiedo wrote: post #62
egberts wrote: post #57

Interesting that King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella issued the Alhambra Decree to kick the Jews out ot Spain shortly after Christopher Columbus, a Sephardic Jew, reached the Americas. This was even after the Jews heavily funded the Spaniard military in the conquest of Gibraltar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

The purpose was to convert most of population to christianity to achieve cultural unity, and the ones who wouldn't convert had to leave. Usually it is explained only as an expulsion of the jews. P.D: there are many theories around Gibraltar, specially since it was during succession war and the country was in a civil war.

I think it would have been more polite if they all converted to Judaism is cultural unity was the goal.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#75

Post by p3rls »

dotancohen wrote: post #67
p3rls wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little etymological sidenote: Sephardic is just the Hebrew word for Spain, whereas Ashkenaz was one of the great grandsons of Noah associated with eastern and central Europe. However, when you see a Jew with the last name Ashkenazi, it's safe to assume they're Sephardi. Why? Because last names for Jews are a more recent historical development and these Jews immigrated to Sephardic territory hundreds of years ago (b…

> A little etymological sidenote: Sephardic is just the Hebrew word for Spain, whereas Ashkenaz was one of the great grandsons of Noah associated with eastern and central Europe. Sephardic comes from the name of the land of Sephard. You are correct that in modern Hebrew this name refers to Spain, however it should be noted that Biblical use of the word did not refer to Spain or the Iberian peninsula. It is a modern (…

>Counter anecdote, none of the people named Ashkenazi that I know are Sephardic. One's family is from Turkey, I'm not sure during which period they immigrated to the holy land. It is possible that they came to Turkey from Spain, though the family today does not consider themselves Sephardic. The IDF chief Gabbi Ashkenazi's father is Syrian I believe.

It's thought these people were part of the expulsions. Gabbi Ashkenazi, the former IDF chief's father was Bulgarian-- Bulgaria, of course, being Ottoman territory and right next-door to Thessaloniki, a Jewish hotspot of the time would match this model well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_(surname)#cite_note-...

I haven't been to Hebrew school in a long time but still remember a few things :)

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#77

Post by Bulb7187 »

MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #53
dumbo-octopus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of Jesus’s original disciples were Jewish. And you can be certainly be Jewish without having Jewish DNA, but there’s some controversy as to whether the reverse is true.

David Cross has a funny [bit][1] about whether the reverse is true. [1]: https://youtu.be/z09So1j4kpk?t=378

Is he not aware of the concept of ethnicity? Native Americans, Romani, Assyrians, Armenians, Kurds, and Sikhs tie religion and ethnicity.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#78

Post by susidhfjcbd »

egberts wrote: post #57

Interesting that King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella issued the Alhambra Decree to kick the Jews out ot Spain shortly after Christopher Columbus, a Sephardic Jew, reached the Americas. This was even after the Jews heavily funded the Spaniard military in the conquest of Gibraltar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

> This was even after the Jews heavily funded the Spaniard military in the conquest of Gibraltar.

To be fair, it was also after they aided the initial Muslim conquest of Spain and assisted the new Muslim rulers in subjugating the native Christian population.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#79

Post by franciscop »

chucke wrote: post #63

Spain still working on the national identity while not reconciling that its two most famous sailors were a portuguese and a genovese. You can see it in claims like these or the internal reframing of the magellan voyage as the "magellan-elcano expedition ".

OTOH there's well known and documented anti-Spanish propaganda during the centuries by basically the rest of Europe (Protestants specifically), so I start to doubt claims from both sides (disclaimer: I'm Spaniard):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#80

Post by shsbdksn »

juunpp wrote: post #73
chipdart wrote: post #35

From the article: > “Unfortunately, from a scientific point of view, we can’t really evaluate what was in the documentary because they offered no data from the analysis whatsoever,” Antonio Alonso, a geneticist and former director of Spain’s National Institute of Toxicology and Forensic Sciences told El País. So, baseless speculation used by the Spanish regime to claim Christopher Columbus as Spanish during the Spani…

How does a Jew discovering the Americas benefit the Spanish regime when the Spanish Catholic monarchy precisely kicked all Jews and Muslims from the peninsula with their ill-named "reconquista"? If this turns out to be true, then it'd be rather embarrassing. Presumably this Lorente has more evidence he hasn't put on display, so it isn't completely baseless either. It's certainly sketchy and not very scientific, thoug…

Ill named?
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