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Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

mcc-berlin.net

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Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#321

Post by kyleee »

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #282
dreadlordbone wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

No. This is something Texas is having to come to terms with right now. Cars and roads only scale so much before you physically can't move more people fast enough even with more roads and more lanes. Rail scales way better. So Texas is pushing a high speed rail line that will allow people to commute 30-90min into a city from locations that currently are 1.5-3 hours away. And at that allow those people to commute to ci…

Good comment except for the first word. Obviously cars enable all sorts of movement and economic activity, so why not just admit it? The rest of your comment is just talking about how rail may do all those things to a greater extent than cars. You don’t need to deny benefits of cars, it doesn’t bolster your arguments. Better to just be honest and then extol the virtues of rail and other transportation methods.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#322

Post by nisa »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #188
sadcherry wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big reporting bias though. You won't see in the news "of the 40,000 railway connections today, most were on time". You only read about some train having had an AC issue or the like. I have family in Germany and they never go by train but tell me regularly about how bad the train has become. They have literally not been in one for 15+ years. But they watch the news every day.

>There is a big reporting bias though. You won't see in the news "of the 40,000 railway connections today, most were on time". You only read about some train having had an AC issue or the like. I feel most know about Japan's shinkansen being run well. For those who don't, the average delay is 1.1 minutes on average. For comparison, the DB long distance trains are considered on time if they're less than 6 minutes late…

> Japan's shinkansen

They have dedicated tracks. In Germany all train lines (freight, local trains, long-distance trains) share the same tracks and especially at different speeds this causes delays and problems.

Building new track or even adding more lanes is extremly difficult because of NIMBY's and from 1995 to 2005 switches and extra lanes for overtaking where build back to save costs.

Additionally signalling is in large parts still very labour intensive and smaller tracks are often still running with technology from the early 20th century and late 19th century.

So the problem Deutsche Bahn has to solve is quite a bit harder than shinkansen.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#323

Post by nsokolsky »

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #282
dreadlordbone wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

No. This is something Texas is having to come to terms with right now. Cars and roads only scale so much before you physically can't move more people fast enough even with more roads and more lanes. Rail scales way better. So Texas is pushing a high speed rail line that will allow people to commute 30-90min into a city from locations that currently are 1.5-3 hours away. And at that allow those people to commute to ci…

Is Texas "coming to terms" with it, though? Cars don't scale infinitely but are also way more flexible than rail lines could ever be. If your goal is to have everyone work in downtown Dallas then yes, they suck. But you can just build offices and manufacturing facilities all around the state instead, avoiding the creation of single bottlenecks.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#324

Post by nemo44x »

ggernov wrote: post #203

The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. I took public transit all the time living in Melbourne since it was clean and silent nearly 98% of the time. Same in the Netherlands.

The main reason is because Americans are unbelievably wealthy and can afford large homes that require multiple cars for the family to get around. It’s a positive sign of American prosperity and the envy of the world hence the massive immigration demand and relative lack of expatriatism.

If America gets to a point where that’s no longer possible and people have to live in smaller and more densely populated areas not by choice but by necessity then the country is truly in decline.

Let the Germans cram themselves into smaller homes and trains. I truly hope Americans can continue to prosper and acquire comfortable homes with more utility and private transport powered by cheap energy for all.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#325

Post by nsokolsky »

postpawl wrote: post #245
jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

How much of the increased rail use is helping increase GDP, though, rather than being purely leisurely trips with little long term value for the economy? More people going to hike in the forest on the weekend technically increases GDP but doesn't add much value to the economy overall.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#326

Post by nsokolsky »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #271
dreadlordbone wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

Cars destroy walkability, cyclability, ability for kids to freely play outside, enable sprawl (hence more energy consumption hence more carbon emissions). There’s no free lunch with using more surface area, which cars greatly expand people’s ability to consume.

True to a degree but cars also make parenting easier: you get bigger houses, bigger backyards, don't have lug your kids around on public transit, deal with the weather, don't need to worry about rail worker strikes, etc.

All America's missing is laws that allow kids to walk to school and adding more sidewalks to enable this, but this is changing over time (see Utah's free range parenting law).

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#327

Post by jordanb »

resonious wrote: post #314
postpawl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

Gp said they know about these other factors but doesn't know how to price them. Do you know a way?

"These things aren't important unless you can wedge them into my spreadsheet" is the time of consultant-brained nonsense that got us the world we're living in.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#328

Post by JimTheMan »

add-sub-mul-div wrote: post #215
ggernov wrote: post #203

The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. I took public transit all the time living in Melbourne since it was clean and silent nearly 98% of the time. Same in the Netherlands.

> The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. That's a lie told by people who sell fear as a product to people who always want new reasons to live in fear.

This platitude doesn't make the back seats of a greyhound bus any more palatable.

God they were cheap tickets though..

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#329

Post by intellix »

netsharc wrote: post #312
eertami wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I frequently take day (or weekend) trips to other European cities by rail. It is usually quicker than the roads but also crucially you can be productive on the train. If I had to drive my car there then I probably wouldn't bother.

This reminds me of this Swedish office on a train https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbrI3refig , made for a company which had an hour train commute from Stockholm. It's even got 8 telephone line (4 in and 4 out)! I guess a lot of people would use work booths/conference rooms on trains, but the price/profit has to work for both sides (the train company and users). As for trains, the old-fashioned 6 seater compartments…

you could also work from a car if someone else is driving it like a taxi, but imagine the price difference to travel such a long distance every day over rail versus metro + rail.

Another point I haven't seen mentioned much is safety. Rail is vastly safer than cars and results in less strain on the medical system.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#330

Post by FabHK »

Discordian93 wrote: post #194
PlunderBunny wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see the same thing in Hong Kong - the rail company practically creates new towns when they add a new station or extend a rail line.

I was under the impression Hong Kong was one big urban area already, is there really empty land new towns can be built on?

You can be smack in the middle of Central, and then walk up a path behind the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception and be on Old Peak Road hiking up to Victoria Peak. Or be in Wan Chai, take the stairs next to the Rolls Royce car dealer, and be on Bowen Road Fitness Trail and in Aberdeen Park within minutes.

HK island, New Territories, the outer islands and even large parts of Kowloon are predominantly green, parks and forests.

As GP mentioned, occasionally the subway operator MTR will build a new station, build a shopping mall on top, and housing for 50,000 people.

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