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Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

mcc-berlin.net

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Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#111

Post by theendisney4 »

V__ wrote: post #93
jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

> already substantial subsidies for the rail industry Though to be fair, there are also substantial subsidies for the whole road network.

Roads are much more efficient with fewer cars.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#112

Post by tetha »

Larrikin wrote: post #16
geraldwhen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is smaller than California. The United States is very, very large place, mostly unpopulated. It’s hard to apply whatever Germany, a small, densely populated country does to the US, which is largely empty land.

Why do we have to pretend that routes between Montana and South Dakota have to come up when discussing ways of improving rail usage in the US? We could treat routes between Chicago, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis like Germany. We could treat high speed rail in California or the Northeast like Japan. Choosing to live in an extremely rural area shouldn't just be a "well it doesn't help" me trump card to defeat things that…

We also have a similarly frustrating kind of arguments in germany itself.

Like, focus on public transport won't work. Because in some tiny towns of 30k people living there, there is never a bus around so why care? Like... dude. In Hamburg, we have subway stations that move more people in minutes than people live in your town. Yes, it may not work on your case. Your case is however a side note. It needs consideration, but not focus.

Or electric vehicles. There are interesting questions about electric vehicles in uncontrolled situations, emergency services and long-distance situations. As well as regions without a good charging infrastructure. Yes. These are problematic. Except, most likely, more unique cars drive past my window in an hour on a workday than exist in that tiny town. Just keep your ICE car for the trip to spain you never take by car, but we should optimize the vehicles in cities. Again, it needs consideration, but not focus.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#113

Post by Larrikin »

adamc wrote: post #59
Larrikin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we have to pretend that routes between Montana and South Dakota have to come up when discussing ways of improving rail usage in the US? We could treat routes between Chicago, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis like Germany. We could treat high speed rail in California or the Northeast like Japan. Choosing to live in an extremely rural area shouldn't just be a "well it doesn't help" me trump card to defeat things that…

The politics at the national level are likely to be that states not helped by this vote against it.

Maybe we should work on making one vote to be equal in the nation.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#114

Post by pkd »

Aerroon wrote: post #33
waveBidder wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same reason omnivores are sometimes highly critical of veg*ns: there's a moral claim going on, so their identity/ moral standing is threatened.

It's not a question of moral standing or identity but rather that public transport (and vegan) advocates would like to force you to live like they do. Those things gaining too much popularity threatens the way you do things. We have examples of this happening, eg smoking. It has become unpopular enough that governments pass nonsensical bans like banning flavored cigarettes or just making it entirely illegal for only…

> public transport (and vegan) advocates would like to force you to live like they do

Is there a citation for this claim?

> governments pass nonsensical bans like banning flavored cigarettes

Is it nonsensical? There is research[1][2] showing that flavoured tobacco is one of the primary factors used to attract younger users. We know that tobacco is bad, and also that flavoured tobacco increases its usage, so unless you are against public health policy measures themselves, it follows logically that flavoured tobacco should be covered by public health measures.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9007155/ [2] https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/26/6/709

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#115

Post by tasuki »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #63
weinzierl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I LOVE the German transit system" I have some experience with the public transport systems in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and Belgium. In my opinion Germany's is the worst. Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized. The tariffs (apart from the Deutschlandticket) are overly complicated and suffer heavily under the common balkanization. The DB Navi…

> Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, It is for that reason I'd love it. Accessible, universal, sustainable, resilient technology! I once got stuck in Nuremberg overnight. The ticket office was open all night and an official looked up all my options from memory and timetable books and wrote me a diagram with pen and paper that perfectly showed me how to get to my destination. I'll never forget that…

> For my mind the smartest ticket technology I ever saw was Hungarian and used on the Budapest transit system in the 1980s - some devious discrete mathematics that coded the journey stops, used status, and allowed routes all in a matrix of hole punches on a small paper ticket. The punches (that you had to use when getting on trains, buses and trams) were purely mechanical, and so was the validating machine used by inspectors/conductors to see if you had punched your ticket. Simply genius.

I think you're giving a little too much credit. In the nearby Czech Republic we had a system where there'd be eight (or perhaps 10?) places for a hole. Your ticket would get marked with a combination specific to the vehicle.

They'd periodically change which vehicle has what holes. With 8 holes, 256 tickets would be enough to give you a valid ticket for any vehicle. With 10 holes, 1024 tickets. I think some people carried around all the tickets to be able to ride for free. Others kept tickets with small number of holes for later reuse in a vehicle which had a superset of those. Good times!

I find it very hard to believe the Hungarians has something smarter than that, but would love to be proven wrong!

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#116

Post by ben_w »

emaro wrote: post #74
server_man3000 wrote: post #2

Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? I LOVE the German transit system (although Denmark wins in cleanliness). However, Germany is a bit predatory with this new system. You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Additionally, there are so many apps that resell the ticket as so…

Surprised how positive you're writivg about the German public transport. The Deutsche Bahn doesn't have a good reputation in central Europe. I guess my frame of reference isn't average, given I live in Switzerland. Edit: the 49-euro ticket is great though!

As a UK citizen living in Berlin, I assure you that for all the cancellations and repair works, there's many places which look up to the German system.

(I've also been to the USA, and (IMO) Amtrak makes the UK look good).

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#117

Post by kachapopopow »

theendisney4 wrote: post #111
V__ wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> already substantial subsidies for the rail industry Though to be fair, there are also substantial subsidies for the whole road network.

Roads are much more efficient with fewer cars.

The weather would like to have a word with you.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#118

Post by bmoxb »

theendisney4 wrote: post #111
V__ wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> already substantial subsidies for the rail industry Though to be fair, there are also substantial subsidies for the whole road network.

Roads are much more efficient with fewer cars.

By what metric?

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#119

Post by ericd »

jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

The only carbon capture/sequestration method I’m aware of without significant tradeoffs outside of price is direct air capture, and last I saw, that clocked in at $600-1200/ton (Climeworks). So maybe not such a terrible deal?

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#120

Post by k__ »

It's pretty awesome, but it gets more expensive all the time.

First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months.

People loved it, and the government talked about doing a permanent 29€ ticket.

But now we pay 49€ and it's already planned to become 59€.

Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore.

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