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Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

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Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#371

Post by keybored »

tomp wrote: post #163
exmadscientist wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, as so often the case, a classic prisoner's dilemma problem [0]: "no nukes" is pretty clearly superior to "any nukes at all", but "they have nukes but we don't" is game over, so... nukes for all (major world powers)! It's awful, but that's the prisoner's dilemma for you. I have a hard time respecting any anti-nuclear activist who doesn't at least acknowledge this facet of things, even if "no one has nukes and n…

No, I disagree. There hasn't been a hot war between nuclear powered states, ever. This is pretty obviously superior compared with the previous "no nukes" era, that had plenty of hot wars...

There have been plenty of wars being fought. And even proxy wars between nuclear powers!

But those don’t affect you.

And I’m sure you are 100% convinced that if we could snap our fingers and give all sovereign states nukes then all fighting would stop. So what’s the point.

And if you’re wrong? Then we only risk the permanent destruction of advanced human organization. No biggie.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#372

Post by gklitz »

userbinator wrote: post #352
satvikpendem wrote: post #106

I recently went to the Hiroshima museum. I had originally thought that people simply vaporized when the bomb hit, but that is not the case. The museum shows how people's skin simply sloughed off and some were holding parts in their hands as they walked around to find their loved ones. But the worst part was radiation poisoning. Many that did not initially get hit and burned directly went towards the center of the cit…

You should also visit the Pearl Harbor memorial, to understand what lead to the events at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I’ll assume that you are American, so you obviously don’t understand how tone deaf that suggestion is to the current thread. Imagine someone commenting on horrible Auschwitz’s is after they visit and someone commenting “you should visit the Reichstag building to understand what lead to it all”, or a thread about 9/11 and someone suggest visiting a museum about the conflict in the Middle East to learn what lead to the events.

Obviously we are talking about completely different types of events and magnitudes of death and destruction, and the very notion that you should try to find justification for murder by events you can correlate to people who share ethnicity or nationality with the victims is just a cruel insult to anyone with a hint of human decency.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#373

Post by userbinator »

gklitz wrote: post #372
userbinator wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should also visit the Pearl Harbor memorial, to understand what lead to the events at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I’ll assume that you are American, so you obviously don’t understand how tone deaf that suggestion is to the current thread. Imagine someone commenting on horrible Auschwitz’s is after they visit and someone commenting “you should visit the Reichstag building to understand what lead to it all”, or a thread about 9/11 and someone suggest visiting a museum about the conflict in the Middle East to learn what lead to the…

Ask what "hint of human decency" the Japanese had to attack a neutral country.

It seems you've fallen for the propaganda that they've been producing ever since. Regardless whether they'd be nuked they would've still suffered horribly.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#374

Post by deanCommie »

js8 wrote: post #350
deanCommie wrote: post #276

The Hiroshimia/Nagasaki situation is one of the best examples I can think of with plenty of evidence of the "history is written by the winners" concept. It has been justified repeatedly over the years both in terms of relativism ("The firebombing of Tokyo killed more people, yet isn't so controversial"), and in terms of hypotheticals becoming certainties ("The empire was never going to surrender without a massive fig…

Your last paragraph makes a terrible moral argument: Yeah, maybe I am waging a war today, but's in the interest of the future peace! I don't think your hypothetical assumption that 20th century peace could not be made without using nukes in WW2 is valid. Why not even turn it up and say that future peace from nuclear weapons is impossible without living through the global thermonuclear war? Clearly, most people can im…

I wasn't trying to make a moral argument.

With the information available at the time, dropping the nukes was immoral, and unjustifiable. The public justifications and the ones accepted by the standard western historical narrative do not hold up to scrutiny.

Despite that, I'm claiming that the decision probably inadvertently saved lives.

But that's not a moral argument. There were other means to save lives from nuclear apocalypse, and the US is complicit in its own actions that they've done to ensure a cold war with the Soviet Union.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#375

Post by pyrale »

keybored wrote: post #304
pyrale wrote: post #9

I have no issue with this laureate, but it is sad that the comittee could not find someone deserving that is working on a more current conflict. I guess this is not a positive outlook for the current state international conflicts.

> I have no issue with this laureate, but it is sad that the comittee You have no issue but it is sad? > could not find someone deserving that is working on a more current conflict. I guess this is not a positive outlook for the current state international conflicts. Just any issue would be fine for you? Or could it be some specific issue that you care abuot.

I see no issue with this org being nominated. Their advocacy seems to be right and useful. Good for them. On the other hand, reading the declaration, it's pretty clear that this nomination does not exist to celebrate good news. That is the sad part.

> Or could it be some specific issue that you care abuot.

I, of course, have causes that are closer to my heart. But even if it was a conflict I had no previous knowledge, learning about it through the news of its end, or even that people are working hard to solve it, is kind of beautiful. Peace in our time is always awing.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#376

Post by mistermann »

jszymborski wrote: post #283
mistermann wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes it sound like regimes like ours necessarily do not also engage in it, which seems "a bit off" to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ours" as this is the internet, but yes, to the extent that there are authoritarian elements in every government, most governments do this to some degree. It's important to fight against these authoritarian elements as best as one can, especially if you are in a position of influence. It's also important, however, not to equivocate between totalitarian regimes like Russia and (albeit imp…

And just because you believe that yours is better (as most of your countrymen do, purely by coincidence) does not mean that it is necessarily true.

Humans love telling stories about the superiority of this or that. Humans hate wondering if these stories are true. Most cannot even try.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#377

Post by dsign »

layer8 wrote: post #317
dsign wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I think it's one of the reasons we have to be self sustaining on other heavenly bodies. This is not a joke. But every time anybody brings it up a mob shows up saying that we must make it work here on Earth, and we should all go to hell if we can't. But we only need a few madmen in power for the rest of us to not matter.

The point is that making it work on Earth is orders of magnitude easier than making it work on Mars (or wherever). And by that I don’t mean that it’s easy by any stretch, but that establishing a self-sustaining colony on another planet is so much harder. In addition to the extremely challenging extraterrestrial environment (much more challenging than anything we have on Earth, including in the case of terrestrial nuc…

>> The point is that making it work on Earth is orders of magnitude easier than making it work on Mars (or wherever)

I disagree.

There are folk who know the physics and the engineering of putting a colony in, say, the Moon. That knowledge is theoretical to an extent, since we haven't done it before. But we don't need any new physics or even radically new engineering. So, you get a bunch of engineers, give them 10% of the West's budget, and you are good to go. It should be said that whatever it costs to put a self-sustaining colony outside of Earth will be an investment. Even if, for whatever reason, you can't trade heavy commodities with that settlement, you are creating a blueprint. Next time somebody wants to spend $XXXXXXX in weapons or a trade war, they may consider to instead use your blueprint and go somewhere where they can live the way they want.

Now think about some other problem, like say, avoiding a nuclear war with Putin. You could give him Europe or a chunk of it an hope he would be sated. Or you could try to forcibly remove Putin from power. If you succeed, you would have turned his entire nation into a decided enemy of the West for at least a century, not less willing to use nuclear weapons. You could invade Russia--again, risking nuclear annihilation in the process--, occupy the country and destroy their nuclear stock. That's going to be 30% of the West's budget at least, and a huge human toll. The reconstruction effort will be 20% of the West's budget for many decades, and you will need to rebuild that country or their resentment will cost you dearly. What about China and Taiwan, and a few decades from now, China vs Australia and China vs India? What about global warming and ecological collapse?

I think you are failing to see the staggering complexity of "making it work on Earth", and the fact that we only need to fail once.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#378

Post by defrost »

dsign wrote: post #377
layer8 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that making it work on Earth is orders of magnitude easier than making it work on Mars (or wherever). And by that I don’t mean that it’s easy by any stretch, but that establishing a self-sustaining colony on another planet is so much harder. In addition to the extremely challenging extraterrestrial environment (much more challenging than anything we have on Earth, including in the case of terrestrial nuc…

>> The point is that making it work on Earth is orders of magnitude easier than making it work on Mars (or wherever) I disagree. There are folk who know the physics and the engineering of putting a colony in, say, the Moon. That knowledge is theoretical to an extent, since we haven't done it before. But we don't need any new physics or even radically new engineering. So, you get a bunch of engineers, give them 10% of…

> I disagree.

Of course you do, you've followed that with

Yet Another Hand Waving Away Challenges Of Self Sustaining Off Earth Colonies.

Even if there was a self sufficient colony on Mars, it's tiny and all the other problems remain; non European colonies on Earth didn't eliminate issues at home and they were vastly simpler to establish than off planet colonies for a host of reasons you've skimmed over.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#379

Post by [deleted] »

userbinator wrote: post #373
gklitz wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll assume that you are American, so you obviously don’t understand how tone deaf that suggestion is to the current thread. Imagine someone commenting on horrible Auschwitz’s is after they visit and someone commenting “you should visit the Reichstag building to understand what lead to it all”, or a thread about 9/11 and someone suggest visiting a museum about the conflict in the Middle East to learn what lead to the…

Ask what "hint of human decency" the Japanese had to attack a neutral country. It seems you've fallen for the propaganda that they've been producing ever since. Regardless whether they'd be nuked they would've still suffered horribly.

[deleted]

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#380

Post by jojobas »

js8 wrote: post #349
jojobas wrote: post #42

Nuclear weapons are not used not because they are morally unacceptable, but rather because of MAD and their limited efficiency when used against armies. If you wanted to give a Nobel Prize to someone for preventing nuclear wars, give it to Nuclear Winter researchers and military analysts.

You mean like the small guns, right? They are not being used not because society deems it morally unacceptable, but because the gun owners are afraid they will be counterattacked with guns. I just had an argument about madness that is MAD: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41776112 Actually, it would be interesting if someone researched the relationship between gun culture and acceptance of MAD. Both on national (…

People whose prediction skills are so bad as to use a gun without a good reason tend not to get in charge of nuclear weapons.

And yes guns are used as a deterrent a lot more than they are used to shoot to kill.

MAD is everything that held it all together during the Cuban missile crisis. Later countries agreed not to pursue ABM so as to keep the deterrent.

Your snark is misplaced.

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