Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo • Hacker News Board

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#341

Post by ValentinA23 » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 1:46 AM UTC

kaon_ wrote: post #29

At home I have a book telling stories of Dutch WW2 survivors still living today. One of them was an eye witness account of the Hiroshima bomb. He was a POW and worked in a quarry or mine on the outskirts of town. He saw a single plane fly over. A bomb dropped with a parachute attached. Moments later he was flung to the back of the quarry and the city was gone. I would never have guessed there were eyewitnesses like t…

My opa was also a Dutch POW, and his story is one for the books. He was assigned to work at a sake distillery just outside of Hiroshima. When the bomb hit, he was in the middle of taste-testing a new batch—he always claimed he was more of a quality control expert than a prisoner. The explosion sent him flying into a stack of sake barrels, and he ended up with a head full of rice wine and a newfound appreciation for the finer things in life.

The distillery, being built like a fortress to withstand earthquakes, somehow remained standing. Opa used to say that if he ever got nuked again, he'd want to be surrounded by sake barrels—apparently, they make for excellent shock absorbers.

Every New Year, he'd tell us about "the time I survived a nuclear blast with nothing but a sake buzz." He'd chuckle, pour himself a small glass of the weakest beer he could find, and toast to "the power of fermented rice."

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#342

Post by mensetmanusman » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 1:57 AM UTC

timeon wrote: post #99

squigz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to think of myself as a rational person, yet I worry about it. Because it's not just a matter of math; the effects of a billion people dying at once would be far more detrimental than the deaths from cancer over a century. (One might think this line of reasoning that some people apply is a coping mechanism to ignore the reality, but that might be a different conversation)

But it is not just about coping. We as society, can make policies to decrease chance of getting a cancer and decrease traffic deaths. We just chose not to out of convenience and profit.

Not really, we all eventually die. No need to worry about how you will die past 70.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

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Post by exmadscientist » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 2:09 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #163

exmadscientist wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, as so often the case, a classic prisoner's dilemma problem [0]: "no nukes" is pretty clearly superior to "any nukes at all", but "they have nukes but we don't" is game over, so... nukes for all (major world powers)! It's awful, but that's the prisoner's dilemma for you. I have a hard time respecting any anti-nuclear activist who doesn't at least acknowledge this facet of things, even if "no one has nukes and n…

No, I disagree. There hasn't been a hot war between nuclear powered states, ever. This is pretty obviously superior compared with the previous "no nukes" era, that had plenty of hot wars...

I would contend that it's really interconnectedness (aka globalization) and the general march of technology (especially long-distance weapons) that have contributed to the (very) relative peace of the post-WWII age, but I will readily admit that your point of view is very reasonable and there is a genuine discussion to be had here.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#344

Post by exmadscientist » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 2:15 AM UTC

keybored wrote: post #302

exmadscientist wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, as so often the case, a classic prisoner's dilemma problem [0]: "no nukes" is pretty clearly superior to "any nukes at all", but "they have nukes but we don't" is game over, so... nukes for all (major world powers)! It's awful, but that's the prisoner's dilemma for you. I have a hard time respecting any anti-nuclear activist who doesn't at least acknowledge this facet of things, even if "no one has nukes and n…

God, spare the world from nerds and their game theories. There have been enough nuclear trigger close calls already.

> spare the world from ... game theories

I don't think this point of view is at all defensible. The "game theory" I am referencing is the most basic thing, the very foundation of that discipline, and if you don't think it is applicable, I posit the following scenario:

Consider the Cold War-era state of affairs (because we seem to be heading back that way, at least a little bit), with the following variations:

A. Nuclear weapons do not exist.

B. USA has nuclear weapons. Russia does not.

C. Russia has nuclear weapons. USA does not.

D. Both USA and Russia have nuclear weapons.

Suppose you're an American. (WLOG, so adjust appropriately.) Now rank those four possible scenarios in order of your personal preference.

Personally, I'd rank C dead last. If you don't... why?

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

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Post by known » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 2:17 AM UTC

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Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

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Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 2:35 AM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #276

The Hiroshimia/Nagasaki situation is one of the best examples I can think of with plenty of evidence of the "history is written by the winners" concept. It has been justified repeatedly over the years both in terms of relativism ("The firebombing of Tokyo killed more people, yet isn't so controversial"), and in terms of hypotheticals becoming certainties ("The empire was never going to surrender without a massive fig…

[deleted]

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#347

Post by aunty_helen » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 3:11 AM UTC

kaon_ wrote: post #29

At home I have a book telling stories of Dutch WW2 survivors still living today. One of them was an eye witness account of the Hiroshima bomb. He was a POW and worked in a quarry or mine on the outskirts of town. He saw a single plane fly over. A bomb dropped with a parachute attached. Moments later he was flung to the back of the quarry and the city was gone. I would never have guessed there were eyewitnesses like t…

[flagged]

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#348

Post by js8 » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 3:29 AM UTC

brightball wrote: post #190

sandworm101 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On an individual level, we all have a variety of hammers over our heads. Cancer has killed far more people prematurely than nuclear weapons. Something like 500,000 people a year are murdered. Traffic/bicycle/pedestrian accidents also kill more than nuclear weapons. Even compared to a once-in-a-century nuclear war that perhaps kills a billion people, cancer will kill roughly a billion in the next century anyway. So, f…

I think for a lot of people, myself included, you try not to worry about things you can't control. "Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. Write that down." - Van Wilder

Rocking chair is better than worrying, because rocking chair at least calms your anxiety.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

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Post by js8 » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 3:38 AM UTC

jojobas wrote: post #42

Nuclear weapons are not used not because they are morally unacceptable, but rather because of MAD and their limited efficiency when used against armies. If you wanted to give a Nobel Prize to someone for preventing nuclear wars, give it to Nuclear Winter researchers and military analysts.

You mean like the small guns, right? They are not being used not because society deems it morally unacceptable, but because the gun owners are afraid they will be counterattacked with guns.

I just had an argument about madness that is MAD: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41776112

Actually, it would be interesting if someone researched the relationship between gun culture and acceptance of MAD. Both on national (cultural) and individual level.

Re: Nobel Peace Prize for 2024 awarded to Nihon Hidankyo

#350

Post by js8 » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 3:55 AM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #276

The Hiroshimia/Nagasaki situation is one of the best examples I can think of with plenty of evidence of the "history is written by the winners" concept. It has been justified repeatedly over the years both in terms of relativism ("The firebombing of Tokyo killed more people, yet isn't so controversial"), and in terms of hypotheticals becoming certainties ("The empire was never going to surrender without a massive fig…

Your last paragraph makes a terrible moral argument: Yeah, maybe I am waging a war today, but's in the interest of the future peace!

I don't think your hypothetical assumption that 20th century peace could not be made without using nukes in WW2 is valid.

Why not even turn it up and say that future peace from nuclear weapons is impossible without living through the global thermonuclear war? Clearly, most people can imagine dangers of that, so they are perfectly capable of imagining dangers of only 2 nukes being used, without them actually being used.