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Is the attack helicopter dead?

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Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#101

Post by ponector »

SJC_Hacker wrote: post #79
ponector wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IFV are not dead, rocket launchers as well. Even tanks are still a key. At the end people are capturing land/city, not drones. But drones are changing warfare. Drone hunting other drones, drone with self guidance - they are being used in battle right now. 500$ or even less is the cost of FPV drone with night camera capable to carry 2kg bomb. Russia is buying soldiers for up to $25000 to be killed by such cheap drone…

Those drones are getting lost / shot down / missing their targets at high rate. But since they are relatively cheap, they almost effectively artillery shells right now. Don't need a high kill rate when you have lots of them.

That is true, not every drone hits the target. But the same with any other weapon. How many 155 shells are needed to actually hit the target? A moving target?

And one regular 155mm shell is 5x more expensive than FPV drone.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#102

Post by gertlex »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #92
HPsquared wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Efficiency starts to matter in a near-peer conflict.

I live in the US. A near-peer conflict involves a nuclear exchange. The world will change in ways forever that none of us can ever foresee at that point.

Not sure that counts, as we're not using nuclear weapons in practice for current conflicts/engagements.

We have the whole other range of combat capabilities, and the distribution of those capabilities in our arsenal/armed forces seems guaranteed to change.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#103

Post by matusp »

aspenmayer wrote: post #20
verdverm wrote: post #4

Better discussion by Perun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnoKpXvj41A (there is a saying or word for titles as questions, and the answer is always no)

Perun seems to know his stuff. That said, I’d be curious to know more about his research process, as well as that of other Russia-Ukraine war mappers/vloggers. Determining whether grainy drone footage is current or past alone seems difficult to me as an outsider and fan of their work, though I wish it weren’t necessary and that the war were over.

Tbh Perun often just takes a report released by RUSI, ISW, or other war think tank and does some narration over it. On top of that, he often extrapolates from very small or noisy data.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#104

Post by krisoft »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #92
HPsquared wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Efficiency starts to matter in a near-peer conflict.

I live in the US. A near-peer conflict involves a nuclear exchange. The world will change in ways forever that none of us can ever foresee at that point.

> The world will change in ways forever that none of us can ever foresee at that point.

Nukes are not magic. Of course we can foresee many of the changes a nuclear exchange would bring. Especially on the “planning for war” level.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#105

Post by OliveMate »

sneed_chucker wrote: post #5

Part of a broader pattern in military technology right now. All weapon systems that consist of an expensive vehicle and an expensive-to-train crew are being re-evaluated against drones right now. If you're fighting a highly asymmetric conflict where your enemies can barely touch your expensive toys then it's less of a concern. If you're fighting near-peer it's a different story.

>All weapon systems that consist of an expensive vehicle and an expensive-to-train crew are being re-evaluated against drones right now.

Worth mentioning that this already happened to an attack helicopter 20 years ago! The Comanche[0] was a revolutionary recon/attack helicopter with some mental stealth engineering behind it - everything from limiting sound profile via blade design & fenestron, a radar presence a fraction of an Apache, they even directed the exhaust down the tail boom so that the heat generated could easily be dissipated by the tail rotor!

Unfortunately for helicopter nerds, UAVs were a fraction of the price, suitable for recon and attack, and pilots could survive it being shot down.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing%E2%80%93Sikorsky_RAH-66...

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#106

Post by sidewndr46 »

gertlex wrote: post #102
sidewndr46 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the US. A near-peer conflict involves a nuclear exchange. The world will change in ways forever that none of us can ever foresee at that point.

Not sure that counts, as we're not using nuclear weapons in practice for current conflicts/engagements. We have the whole other range of combat capabilities, and the distribution of those capabilities in our arsenal/armed forces seems guaranteed to change.

Then it is just another proxy war, like the last half of the 20th century between major powers.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#107

Post by _3u10 »

Helicopters like all CAS require air superiority / supremacy to operate effectively. Neither side has either, so it is not an ideal environment for a helicopter to operate in.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#109

Post by simonh »

AlbertCory wrote: post #66
pavlov wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s something icky about discussing killing real people like it was fan fiction of a sci-fi franchise.

I guess you don't want to read anything by actual military people, then. Dehumanizing the enemy is a requirement for those folks.

That’s not the case. It happens, for sure. I know some hair raising army jokes, but plenty of military people recognise their opponents as people just the same.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#110

Post by nl »

People in this discussion are concentrating on the drones (which are a big factor) but the massively effective HIMARS and ATACMS is worth noting too.

Precision guided artillery has been a game-changer in Ukraine.

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